Why does a Sabre Cuff Fail

[bobb121]

Like the topic, but keep in mind the cuff has passed the conductivity test. I had a friend that went to a JWC and had a european style sabre cuff pass, but went to a local comp shortly after and was told it failed for reasons other than conductivity. I'm thinking the person didn't know his stuff. So I am going to ask the community of armorers out there.

[Inquartata]

Check the material rules. It might have been something like no finger loop, turnover not wider enough, not long enoughy, etc.

[bobb121]

since when does there have to be a finger loop?

[bobb121]

Here is an exerpt from the materials section m33:

The conductive material, which may be removable or fixed, of
the regulation glove of the fencer’s sword arm must cover all
the sleeve down to below the external cubital styloid (small
prominent bone of the wrist), both when the fencer is in the
‘on-guard’ position and when the sword arm is straight.
The conductive material must be turned over into the inside of
the gauntlet to a depth of at least 5 cm.
In order to guarantee a good contact with the sleeve of the
conductive jacket, it is necessary to use an elastic band, a
popper button or any system which will guarantee
conductivity and which has been approved by the SEMI
Committee.

Which means if there is no finger loop it should still be okay. M38 goes on to say that if there are any patches of oxidation on a lame then it is not to be used.

[Inquartata]

We've had this discussion before, and IIRC what came out of it was that there had to be some feature which would keep the manchette from riding up the arm, and the finger loop was the only such feature which had been submitted to and approved by SEMI---hence it is pretty much required.

[bobb121]

my friends cuff did indeed not have the fingerloop but the elastic system. Which can also be found in negrini products among other brands. If this system has not been approved, then why did he receive a SEMI stamp at the JWC that he went to? I have also emailed Dan regarding the issue but have yet to hear from him. If the fingerloop is the only approved system, that should be in print somewhere, could someone point me into that direction.

[sabreur]

The finger loop is an American thing. I've never seen a manchette with one here. So you can use your cuff at a JWC, but not at a USFA-sanctioned event.

Go figure.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by bobb121

my friends cuff did indeed not have the fingerloop but the elastic system. Which can also be found in negrini products among other brands. If this system has not been approved, then why did he receive a SEMI stamp at the JWC that he went to? I have also emailed Dan regarding the issue but have yet to hear from him. If the fingerloop is the only approved system, that should be in print somewhere, could someone point me into that direction.

Show me a list of approved foil and epee points. Or a list of FIE approved jackets/uniforms. Those are slightly more important.

That said, was the elastic just around the wrist or was it a palm strap?

[bobb121]

It was one of those slip on sabre cuf's. No velcro, or finger loop. It used the elastic sysem which was mentioned in the rules.

[fencerbill]

Find someone with a sewing machine and sew on a finger loop.

The fact that it passed at a World Cup and was turned down at a USFA event is not that unusual at all.

Dan delights in the erudite intricacies of the rules to an extent not exceeded by many.

I once made a cuff from Infinity fabric that did not have a liner. It was completely conductive inside and out. While the inside was completely conductive Dan failed it because it did not have outside fabric turned over for 5 cm. Go figure. He said that it made no difference that the inside was completely conductive, the outside fabric had to be turned over for 5 cm.

I don't know where the requirement for a finger loop comes from. There is a rule that says there must be conductive Lame to the wrist bone. A cuff without a loop can, in principle, be pulled up so that the wrist bone is not covered by conductive Lame. This is the only thing I can think of that leads to the requirement for finger loops. But you won't find a rule in the book that says "you must have a finger loop".

The length of my arms combined with the sleeve length of my Lame means that my wrist bone is always covered by the Lame sleeve, even in a full lunge (not that I ever did a full lunge). So I just sewed a finger loop on the Lame sleeve. No problem using it at Vets World Championships and USFA events.

[bobb121]

Actually I was loking at the rules and it says, that it must use an elastic system, button system, or other aproved system. It makes no mention at all of the finger loop system. I assume that I could try and use this to argue my point. Until then, I will have to wait for my e-mail from Dan.

Any reply from sword masters regarding this?

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by bobb121

Actually I was loking at the rules and it says, that it must use an elastic system, button system, or other aproved system. It makes no mention at all of the finger loop system. I assume that I could try and use this to argue my point. Until then, I will have to wait for my e-mail from Dan.

The requirement for an elastic band, popper button (metal snap) or other approved system appears in the third paragraph of m.33. At the beginning of that paragraph is specifically states that this is intended to ensure electrical conductivity between the glove/overglove and sleeve of the lame.

The requirement that conductive material cover the arm to a point "below the external cubital styloid" is contained in the first paragraph of m.33, two paragraphs above. The finger loop/palm strap is intended to ensure that this requirement is satisfied.

[bobb121]

But it fails to meet this part of the m33 rule: "In order to guarantee a good contact with the sleeve of the conductive jacket, it is necessary to use an elastic band, a popper button or any system which will guarantee
conductivity and which has been approved by the SEMI
Committee."

I fail to see where the semi has approved the fingerloop design, and seeing as how I have yet to get an email from dan telling me otherwise, doesn't this mean that the fingerloop design on the absolute products is illegal.

Comments appreciated

[fencerbill]

Please read the postings to this thread.

Fingerloops have nothing to do with conductivity.

The phrase "In order to guarantee a good contact with the sleeve of the conductive jacket, it is necessary to use an elastic band, a popper button or any system which will guarantee conductivity and which has been approved by the SEMI Committee" has nothing to do with fingerloops.

Now repeat after me three times:

"Fingerloops have nothing to do with conductivity".

"Fingerloops have nothing to do with conductivity".

"Fingerloops have nothing to do with conductivity".

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by bobb121

But it fails to meet this part of the m33 rule: "In order to guarantee a good contact with the sleeve of the conductive jacket, it is necessary to use an elastic band, a popper button or any system which will guarantee
conductivity and which has been approved by the SEMI
Committee."

I fail to see where the semi has approved the fingerloop design, and seeing as how I have yet to get an email from dan telling me otherwise, doesn't this mean that the fingerloop design on the absolute products is illegal.

Comments appreciated

The rule is to ensure good contact between the cuff and the sleeve of the lame. the finger loop is there to keep the fencer from pulling the manchette up and exposing non-conductive material (the glove cuff) in the valid target area....different usage there, and one has little to do with the other....the finger loop has nothing to do with the quoted rule.

[bobb121]

While I see your point the rule says that the system has to do those things, and be approved by the SEMI. If that is not the case I would like clarification.

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by bobb121

While I see your point the rule says that the system has to do those things, and be approved by the SEMI. If that is not the case I would like clarification.

What the particular paragraph you keep pointing to says is that a system must used to ensure conductivity between the gauntlet and jacket sleeve, and if that system consist of something other than an elastic band or a popper button then it must be approved by the SEMI Committee. In other words the opportunity exists for alternate methods to ensure conductivity, so long as they are approved.

None of this has anything to do with ensuring that target area is covered with conductive material - that requirement is contained in a separate and preceding paragraph. Since there is no requirement for the means used to ensure that target area remains covered at all times be approved by the SEMI Committee, any means may be used provided it is effective and doesn't violate any other rules. Commonly accepted means of ensuring full coverage of target area include finger loops, palm straps, and gloves with conductive material covering the gauntlet, all of which are effective at preventing the conductive material from sliding up the arm over the wrist and leaving target area uncovered by conductive material. The same can't be said of an elastic band at the wrist.