Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

finnfence · 10-06-2007, 07:37 PM

All my own weapons were loaned out or broken, so I ended up using a club weapon with a size-too-large visconti grip and then holding it with my index finger and thumb squeezing the grip fairly far back from the guard, since I wanted to retain that rounded O shape to my hand, for point control. Interesting effect - I got an extra cm or two of effective blade length, and most of the same point control as with a regular grip in my own size. It felt sort of like a cross between holding a french grip way down at the end, and using a pistol grip in the normal way. Not sure if it's worth experimenting with, though. Anyone else have any experience with this setup?

mrbiggs · 10-06-2007, 07:48 PM

It's illegal unless your thumb is no more than 2 cm from the bell guard, which I assume it is not.

Beloit Fencer of Old · 10-06-2007, 09:00 PM

Just don't do it. It will hurt your fencing in the long term...you cannot have the same point control if your bellguard is an extra CM or so away from your hand.

BTW...NO ONE will disqualify your weapon if your thumb is more than 2cm from the guard. You can always rotate your hand up and make it legal for any measurement. And no one ever notices either. It's simply not a big deal.

Point control, however, is.

mrbiggs · 10-06-2007, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beloit Fencer of Old

BTW...NO ONE will disqualify your weapon if your thumb is more than 2cm from the guard. You can always rotate your hand up and make it legal for any measurement. And no one ever notices either. It's simply not a big deal.

I disagree with this entirely. If you're posting with a pistol grip, the ref is gonna notice, as will everyone you fence. Someone is bound to complain.

CvilleFencer · 10-06-2007, 11:22 PM

Keep in mind he is not talking about posting/pommeling as if he were using a French grip. He is just talking about using a grip a bit to big for his hands. Not the best idea, but he is right in that very few referees will notice, especially if he is holding it "wide" while he is holding it to test and then chokes up on it a Cen or so while fencing.

mrbiggs · 10-07-2007, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Keep in mind he is not talking about posting/pommeling as if he were using a French grip. He is just talking about using a grip a bit to big for his hands. Not the best idea, but he is right in that very few referees will notice, especially if he is holding it "wide" while he is holding it to test and then chokes up on it a Cen or so while fencing.

As I understood it, the way he was holding it differed significantly from the usual way of holding a pistol grip so that he got the extra length, in which case I do think it's likely someone would notice.

Maybe I just interpreted the OP wrong.

finnfence · 10-07-2007, 05:57 AM

No, I'm holding it the normal way, the only thing is that the grip is too big, so the snout is too long for my fingers, and if I want to keep my hand in a nice O around the prongy bits, then that puts my thumb and index finger quite far back from the guard, because my hand is so small relative to the grip. The grip in question has a really long snout anyway, but I guess it would work for someone with really long fingers.

Interesting that this is illegal. That seals it for me. I don't care if people will notice that I'm posting or not - if it's illegal, then it's not the game, and I don't want to be playing a different game than everyone else. Besides, gotta uphold the fine Finnish tradition of honesty, right? ;P

HDG · 10-07-2007, 10:57 AM

I think the confusion comes from the use of the word "posting". As described, this isn't posting.

ysbadadden · 10-07-2007, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finnfence

No, I'm holding it the normal way, the only thing is that the grip is too big, so the snout is too long for my fingers, and if I want to keep my hand in a nice O around the prongy bits, then that puts my thumb and index finger quite far back from the guard, because my hand is so small relative to the grip. The grip in question has a really long snout anyway, but I guess it would work for someone with really long fingers.

Interesting that this is illegal. That seals it for me. I

It's not illegal. It's possible for you to hold the weapon the way it's designed to be held and still have your thumb the legal distance from the pad. And you fence holding the weapon the normal way, but with your thumb farther back. There are lots of epee fencers who take advantage of the maximum legal length possible with their grips. It's the usual trade-off: length vs. control.

mrbiggs · 10-07-2007, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finnfence

No, I'm holding it the normal way, the only thing is that the grip is too big, so the snout is too long for my fingers, and if I want to keep my hand in a nice O around the prongy bits, then that puts my thumb and index finger quite far back from the guard, because my hand is so small relative to the grip. The grip in question has a really long snout anyway, but I guess it would work for someone with really long fingers.

Interesting that this is illegal. That seals it for me. I don't care if people will notice that I'm posting or not - if it's illegal, then it's not the game, and I don't want to be playing a different game than everyone else. Besides, gotta uphold the fine Finnish tradition of honesty, right? ;P

Oh. Well, in that case, it still might be illegal, but I agree that you're likely to get away with it.

You can check for yourself if your thumb is 2 cm away from the guard; as long as it's close to that it shouldn't be a problem.

MHS Fencer · 10-07-2007, 06:00 PM

Quote:

When the hand occupies this one position on the grip, the
extremity of the thumb when completely extended must
not be more than 2 cm from the inner surface of the
guard.

Just a note that the method of holding is not necessarily illegal just because your thumb is bent and farther than 2cm from the inner surface of the guard - it's merely a question of whether your thumb is capable, when extended (I'm assuming with your hand otherwise occupying an identical position) of being within 2 cm of the guard, which would likely make this a perfectly valid method of holding the grip.

remise · 10-10-2007, 04:09 PM

If you are referring to holding the grip the way I think you are, you MAY be at risk for injury should your opponent decide to suddenly slap your blade in a way that would hyper-extend your finger. I saw this once during a tournament. No one complained about the fencer who held his grip abnormally, but HE complained mightily after he almost had his finger broken.

He never 'posted' like that again.

finnfence · 10-11-2007, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by remise

If you are referring to holding the grip the way I think you are, you MAY be at risk for injury should your opponent decide to suddenly slap your blade in a way that would hyper-extend your finger. I saw this once during a tournament. No one complained about the fencer who held his grip abnormally, but HE complained mightily after he almost had his finger broken.

He never 'posted' like that again.

I'm just holding it absolutely normally, the way I always hold a pistol grip. The only difference is that because the grip is too big, there is more space than usual between my thumb and the guard.

Tomas N · 10-11-2007, 09:14 AM

I've wondered about this technique myself. I've often heard the advice that the pistol grip should be cut back so that your thumb is firmly against the bellguard and bent. This compares to folks (in epee) who are world champions and post. Why not extend the pistol grip as far back as possible and still be legal? I have long fingers and could potentially move the entire grip back 1/2 inch or so.

Tomas

RITFencing · 10-11-2007, 03:19 PM

For one thing, having your thumb and finger right up against the bell guard as well as the grip can give you even more power and control.