verbal abuse

[hologramqueen]

is anyone else seriously offended by some coaches and their abusive way of coaching? Are we going to turn a blind eye and allow our children to suffer mentally at the hand of verbally abusive coach?
Should new classes be advertised as "fencing by intimidation?"

I was recently at a couple of tourney and heard this "coach" telling his prodigy that "You shouldn't have lost to her, she isn't even rated. you could have beat her, when we get back to class, you are going to do pushups until your arms fall off" and then yesterday a "coach" who should have been giving words of encouragement was berating from the side lines. To see him getting pissy towards his student because he wasn't winning? Since when is it OK as a society to allow someone we are PAYING to coach our child to verbally abuse them? He wasn't even doing it privately, he was blatently doing it! and it wasn't just me who heard this, the venue was small and there were approximately 9 people sitting in my section who witnessed this as well..
When someone is paying a coach for his/her expertise (or a piano teacher, dance teacher, music teacher or any other professional) I don't feel that it is ever appropriate to verbally abuse them. Parents shouldn't be financially supporting a coach in any sport or recreation who is verbally abusing their students.
"The most common form of unfair behavior is verbal abuse. When verbal abuse, temper tantrums, and outbursts of rage are tolerated in a coach or team member the message is, "It’s okay to launch personal attacks on others." Some how inflicting pain is considered among other things justifiable or a sign of strength.
When a coach is fired for abuse, no matter how adept the coach was at his job, people of intelligence realize that taking a stand against abuse is much more important than condoning it.
No one is more influenced by verbal abuse than a child."
(verbalabuse.com)
this has got to stop, and you as parents have been charged with the power to protect your children from harm. Why would you continue to allow this to happen?

[Sword Hobbit]

No, it isn't right.

I had a friend who rode horses since she was five, and was really good at it(like full ride any where she wants to go to college good) when she was about 14 her coach bit off her head at a big horse thing in front of lots of people thing. She tried to keep it up, but lost all interest. A couple years later she quit riding.

[Phincer]

The real shame of it is that the egotistical coaches who yell at fencers are the ones that don't adequately prepare the fencers to the best of their coaching ability.

The ones that DO prepare, DO train, DO talk to and are in touch with their fencers don't have to yell-because they know kids have bad days and good days. They know when the fencer is fencing to the best of their ability, they don't encourage arrogance and over-confidence in their fencers and they know that the fencer is feeling worse about the loss or performance than they are.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by Phincer

The real shame of it is that the egotistical coaches who yell at fencers are the ones that don't adequately prepare the fencers to the best of their coaching ability.

The ones that DO prepare, DO train, DO talk to and are in touch with their fencers don't have to yell-because they know kids have bad days and good days. They know when the fencer is fencing to the best of their ability, they don't encourage arrogance and over-confidence in their fencers and they know that the fencer is feeling worse about the loss or performance than they are.

Hell yes they are.
I am at the World Championships, this morning I watched a really good fencer and a friend of my daughters, just kind of fall apart. I am sure it is because her coach has been yelling at her for years. He wasn't here, you could see her beginning to get fearful when she just couldn't quite catch up on the score, the bout went to 15-13. That person is still in her head.
sigh...
Another one of the girls was talking about her coach, he is Eastern European and she said, "the best thing about my coach is he believes in me, it is mind boggling how much he believes in me" that is the way it should be.
I can't wait to see how my daughter does in college.
The Momster

[Purple Fencer]

I was asked to coach one of my salle's fencers at her first tourney last week...a novice foil in the SoCal Scholastic League. Took me away from my table, but has her REAL coach couldn't make it, I was asked for her semi and finals bout.

I do not believe in negative coaching....certainly not at the level that's become infamous in any sport. My kid was confident and did everything her coach taught her....except she made some technique mistakes in the semis that cost her some points.

Instead of screaming at her or belittling her for missing her shots, I simply told her WHAT she was doing that was making her miss (Imagine that...actualy giving a solution instead of just yelling!) She's a lefty and was fencing a righty. Her hand was pronated a little too moch and she was laying the blade flat instead of sticking the point. I told her her tactics were fine....she was attacking in preparation a lot and was always in a position to score, but if she were to supinate her hand a bit, the cant in teh blade would square up more and she'd land her shots.

She listened and did was I suggested....the bout was over very quickly after that....and she remembered it for the final and got up to 12-0 before trying a point in line -- something she;d not been taught to do.

A screamer coach would've ripped into her for trying it, not knowing how to properly pull the move off. i figured "she's gonna get hit....best to let her take teh shot...she has plenty of time and score."

Of course, she DID get hit...and all I said was "You can;t do that if you don;t know how, kiddo."

she stopped doing it, went back to what was working, and won.

[lefty_monster]

I see those coaches at tournaments and shake my head sadly. There's nothing that I can do about it because it is the fencer's choice to stay with a coach like that. It reminds me how much I appreciate my coach.

[Allen Evans]

Yet, these coaches often have many students, and run very successful clubs -- in terms of competitive results and numbers of fencers.

Why does this happen? Fencers allow it. Parents allow it. Some fencers (though not as many as some coaches might think) actually do perform in a negative environment, for a variety of reasons. Parents may feel that the coach's "abuse" is simply voicing their own high expectations for their children, or not have any counter-examples of successful coaches who don't follow this path.

As fencers come through the door, the coach/club filters out those students who don't perform well in a adversarial coaching environment. Many of those students quit the sport completely, ensuring that if they had any talent, another club won't get them. The fencers that stay, and are successful, propagate the myth that this approach works (One coach told me: "Everyone says I am harsh, but where are their champions?"). No one ever asks about the students that dropped out.

Parents and fencers more and more, seem heavily focused on results and achievements. The idea of doing a sports for sport's sake is completely alien to them. Activities are solely results oriented, and the fact that someone might love to do something -- without being gifted at it -- is simply beyond their keen. This attitude appears in some parents and to have spread to the children as well, as junior high students already express anxiety to me about grades and extra-curricular activities will impact their choice of selective high schools, and later, colleges.

So parents and fencers look for the magic coach, the magic bullet. Loud coaches get their attention, simply by the way that they coach. These coach have good success rates, since all of their students have first survived the coach (so surviving a DE with an opponent seems pretty trivial by comparison). Quieter coaches, who many not have driven away average students, aren't noticed, and don't always produce the results that get them noticed, unless they have an excellent program in place.

Unfortunately, as fencing expands and resources don't expand with it, competition for access to quality training and competitive opportunities will increase. This is not a good environment to promote fencing as "sport for sports sake" and some coaches will continue to use this competitive pressure to continue to push their students harder than they should be pushed.

AE

[C.I.C.]

Originally Posted by hologramqueen

is anyone else seriously offended by some coaches and their abusive way of coaching? Are we going to turn a blind eye and allow our children to suffer mentally at the hand of verbally abusive coach?
...

1. After a sufficient number of parents withdraw from the offending club, the coach will hopefully get the message; I've seen it happen.

2. Some coaches (and others in the general public) believe that tough treatment breeds tough competitors, and weeds out the weak (there are a number of such adherents right here at fencing.net).

3. As counter-intuitive as it may seem, some people (kids included) actually do respond to that type of verbal harassment; they do try harder - "I'll show you!", or at least to stop the harangues.
Just look at something like military special forces training; almost pure ordeal and abuse, but it gets the desired results (and "desired" is the key word here).

4. Parents who stick with such coaches usually do so because they perceive that it's getting the desired results (see above.)

[lauralitz]

My daughter's coach is wonderful. She is positive and a good role model. I can't say enough good things about this coach. My daughter just loves her coach.

I am sad that my daughter is exposed to the abusive coaches on the other side of the strip. I have even had the opposing fencer's mother come up to me after a bout and profusely apologize for her daughter's coaches behavior. I simply told the other mother that I didn't care how good the coach was, that I wouldn't have him coach my daughter.

Maybe the USFA should look into having a stricter code of behavior for coaches (particularly of youth fencers)?

LL

[HDG]

Originally Posted by lauralitz

Maybe the USFA should look into having a stricter code of behavior for coaches (particularly of youth fencers)?

Maybe the USFCA should as well.

[Allen Evans]

Codes of conduct for coaches abound. The USFA asks that it's coaches follow the ethics guidelines of the USOC, and I believe that the USFCA has similar guidelines in place, or is also using the USOC standards of professional conduct.

Neither group, however, has the resources to investigate complaints, and neither group has any real ability to punish anyone in violation of these guidelines. I suppose the USFCA or USFA could revoke membership in extreme cases, but that's an empty threat, at best. Neither group has the ability to force the coach out of the business of coaching.

Fencing coaches in the US are unregulated and unsupervised. Anyone can call themselves a coach, and -- unless a civil or criminal law is being broken -- they can conduct business pretty much how they please. For 99% of the coaches out there, they do well by their students, and make contributions to the sport. But there's always that 1% that sets as the bad example.

AE

[fencerwallet]

Please. During SN, my son's coach had to leave the strip during his DE because two other coaches whose kids had finished were arguing in the spectator area and a fistfight almost broke out. There were kids and parents in the vicinity. They were separated by my son's coach, but for a second or two it got pretty heated.

[samster]

These kinds of coaches persist in almost every organized sport I can think of. Maybe the mentality of winning at all/any cost drives the behavior. More likely, some deep-rooted personal issues/insecurities perhaps reinforce the need to vent on their students in the name of stirring potential and performance. And I'm sure their students will simply pass on the tradition.

[GypsyScot]

My coach when I was just learning was an evil, vicious soviet who was fairly certain the iron curtain was going to close again any minute now. I was twelve and the minute I walked in he looked at me, "I sense evil in you, you will be sabre."

We were taught that strict Soviet style that you hear about, this guy was hardcore about it, we learned it well, we were very uniform. Every time I made a mistake he'd cut to my leg in the same spot exactly, I had a welt in the same spot for 3 years.
My first time after learning all the correct hand positions in a practice bout he said to me. "I maybe 50 years older but I fence faster then you think."
"You mean you fence faster then I think you can or faster then I can form a --OW!"
my first cut to the leg.


He'd say horribly deranged things every so often. "In Soviet Union, you would cry yourself to sleep if you knew what we did to little boys who did not listen to master."
When he went to competitions with the three other fencers and I, he wouldn't yell if we lost a match we "shouldn't" have, he'd just frown, which was just as bad to us.

He died in 2002, at his funeral there were about 20 fencers, my group, a couple of guys older than us, a few of his students from Russia, a couple Russian and Ukrainian coaches, it was the only funeral I ever went to where I saw grown men cry.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by fencerwallet

Please. During SN, my son's coach had to leave the strip during his DE because two other coaches whose kids had finished were arguing in the spectator area and a fistfight almost broke out. There were kids and parents in the vicinity. They were separated by my son's coach, but for a second or two it got pretty heated.

Y-14 MF?

[RITFencing]

There's another incident that comes to mind from some youth fencing at nationals, though that was more with parent and coach behavior towards the ref and other fencers after their kid lost a bout.

[NNR]

I totally agree that there is no place in any sport for abuse. On the other hand, my daughter, who has been incredibly well coached from the age of 9 by the same coach who is very atuned to what she can and cannot take in terms of negative (or even constructive) comments. At a Junior competition a year or two ago, she was struggling, the coach came to the strip, critisized and argued with her. She yelled at him and told him to go away. As he was leaving the strip, he told me that he had done it on purpose, she needed to get angry, and this way, she was angry at him and not herself. She proceeded to win the event. She recognized after that he had done it on purpose, with a purpose.

[GypsyScot]

Sorry my last post was supposed to go somewhere but ended up just reminiscing...

I think there's a fine line that needs to be walked there are some students who need or expect a little gruffness, not near what most people ordinary people would call abuse in this thead. When RIT coached High School last year he had a good balance, he was kind enough that the kids liked him, and he was strict enough that they respected him. There are some coaches that I've found that are a little too nice so that the students have a harder time following instruction; who are they going to listen to more their buddy the coach or the coach they know will chastise them for wasting their own time.

I started with the coach who trained me with fear, but I never didn't want to fence, he made me work for his approval, and I learned more about fencing from him then anybody. My next coach was a really mellow guy, the sweetest guy, he never tolerated an angry coach at a competition, and he was fierce enough with his weapon to make sure I had to pay attention.

Also I'm pretty sure those abusive coaches are also Middle School Gym Teachers somewhere...

[fencerwallet]

My memory has failed me. I have been informed by my son that the incident I referred to in my prior post took place during the quarterfinal round at the NAC "F" in Tucson.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by GypsyScot

When RIT coached High School last year he had a good balance, he was kind enough that the kids liked him, and he was strict enough that they respected him. There are some coaches that I've found that are a little too nice so that the students have a harder time following instruction; who are they going to listen to more their buddy the coach or the coach they know will chastise them for wasting their own time.

D'awwww shucks.

I made plenty of mistakes, though, too (big and small), but it did seem to work out ok, on the whole. The kids were really great, and I was lucky enough to see a few of them again at Summer Nationals. I miss em.

The trick was to get them to want to work. I tried to make sure they had as much fun as possible while doing the work they needed, and when that still wasn't very enjoyable for them, I tried to make sure they focussed on goals that made the boring stuff at least seem worth the effort.

I've been around educators of one sort or another all my life, and one of the things I've learned that has helped me out in many endeavors is that the really great ones don't have to be strict, because their students don't want to act up much in the first place. I think of it as "removing the occasion of sin."