verbal abuse

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by NNR

I totally agree that there is no place in any sport for abuse. On the other hand, my daughter, who has been incredibly well coached from the age of 9 by the same coach who is very atuned to what she can and cannot take in terms of negative (or even constructive) comments. At a Junior competition a year or two ago, she was struggling, the coach came to the strip, critisized and argued with her. She yelled at him and told him to go away. As he was leaving the strip, he told me that he had done it on purpose, she needed to get angry, and this way, she was angry at him and not herself. She proceeded to win the event. She recognized after that he had done it on purpose, with a purpose.

Remember here that harshness and abuse are not the same thing. There are definitely times when a bit of tough love (or worse) is certainly appropriate, for reasons like this or when things become truly out of hand.

Not all students are angels, just like not all coaches are devils.

[Dr Epee]

At the most recent Atlanta SN. I was watching a DE bout in cadet WF. At the end of the first period, a girl wearing a Fencer's Club patch was losing to her opponent, something like 5-7. The FC girl appeared to be well coached, had good form, and seemed to be doing the right things. The opponent was all hunched over like a Neanderthal and counterattacked almost exclusively in a style that's become all too common of late (thanks Rene). At the break, the first girl's coach (also wearing a FC warmup) lit into her on the strip verbally, such that she was sobbing at the end of the minute break. Needless to say she proceeded to fall apart and lost something like 7-15. Afterwards, the coach made a comment to her that was very short and vehement, threw her towel at her and stomped off, leaving her to be consoled by her friends. I've never wanted a baseball bat more in my life.

My point here is, Fencer's Club is (or was) supposed to be the pinnacle of the US fencing establishment. If that's an example, I want none of it.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by Dr Epee

My point here is, Fencer's Club is (or was) supposed to be the pinnacle of the US fencing establishment. If that's an example, I want none of it.

Disclaimer: I am not an FC fencer or coach, and have no affiliation with the club beyond a few friends who used to fence there.

Don't just FC by the actions of any one coach... while it certainly has more than it's fair share of problems, the way it runs is that the coaches buy time from the club and all more or less run their own programs with varying degrees of co-operation. While this coach's action sounds quite reprehensible (bet I know who it is, too) you can't hold the club responsible because it's more like a loose association of mini-clubs that happen to share space.

[Bryn Ralph]

Perhaps the culture of fencing in America has lost raison d'etre; rudeness and arrogance seem to abound whether it be the fencer or the coach.

Somehow, each and every one who engages in fencing need to review basic fencing etiquette (USFA/USFCA) and restore good manners on and off the piste. Otherwise, this scenario of verbal abuse on the part of some coaches will continue uninterrupted with extreme consequences.

[Peach]

Oddly enough, I rarely observe interactions between fencers and their coaches that aren't cordial and respectful. The ones that stand out, of course, are the bad ones, but it's easy to notice a disaster in progress and a lot less likely that you will notice when a fencer's coach is giving him or her quiet support and reinforcement. Both of my coaches are consistently supportive and helpful in their interactions.

[lefty_monster]

Originally Posted by Peach

Oddly enough, I rarely observe interactions between fencers and their coaches that aren't cordial and respectful. The ones that stand out, of course, are the bad ones, but it's easy to notice a disaster in progress and a lot less likely that you will notice when a fencer's coach is giving him or her quiet support and reinforcement. Both of my coaches are consistently supportive and helpful in their interactions.

I agree with Peach- the well-behaved coaches/refs/fencers are overshadowed by the small percentage that are monsters.

[chrisod]

It's not just fencing, or pressure packed national events. I've coached youth baseball and basketball for years, and every season there is at least one coach like this. And I'm coaching in county rec leagues with everybody plays rules.

Not that the behavior is excused in pressure events...

Ultimately though, I blame the parents. They are writing a check every month to somebody that is essentially abusing their child. They can stop it anytime they want. Based on my experience in both coaching, and what I've seen around the local horse show circuit with my daughter, the parents of the poor kid are usually just as bad as the coach.

We haven't had any issues with fencing.

[Fencing Mom]

Originally Posted by Bryn Ralph

Perhaps the culture of fencing in America has lost raison d'etre; rudeness and arrogance seem to abound whether it be the fencer or the coach..

I really disagree with this. As a parent, I've been to ...maybe 7 or 8 Summer Nationals, 10 years worth of NAC's, NCAA , high school, regional and divisional tournaments. I've spent days and days walking around those big venues watching fencers, refs, and officials. I was a division officer and bout committee member - I've interacted with and observed many kids and lots of coaches. I can count on one hand the number of rude kids, abusive coaches or parents that I've seen. Sure, there are exceptions. Some lose control of their emotions. But for the most part, the people who make up the fencing community are polite, well-behaved, and want the best for the fencers.

I'll compare this with the 3 or 4 years I watched soccer games. I can remember a number of verbally abusive soccer coaches and many parents on the sideline shouting things I would certainly call objectionable. And don't get me started on totally verbally and physically abusive dance teachers who were not only accepted, but also "respected" (feared, perhaps) and pandered to.

[DonnaP]

Originally Posted by fencerwallet

My memory has failed me. I have been informed by my son that the incident I referred to in my prior post took place during the quarterfinal round at the NAC "F" in Tucson.

What about scraming at other fencers....

I don't know if this is the same incident, however, my family and several friends were involved in a very ugly incident with a Parent/coach at the Tuscon NAC this past year. My son, fencing Y12 saber, was fencing to get to top 8. In Y12 the DE format is best 2/3 5 touch bouts. He fenced the first round and lost to the other boy. My husband and I noted the other fencer was consistantly crossing his feet on the attack. During the break, since our coach could not be in attendance at this particular event, I told my son about this. He appropriately approached the director and asked for a second director to watch the fencers feet. The director, (a well known and respected saber director) immediately agreed and asked another director for assistance. At which time the other boys' coach/father went ballistic!! While we were waiting for another ref to join us, he sent the boy over to me to ask me why I was trying to intimidate him just so my son could win. I told the boy that my son had the right to request another director and if he had any questions he should be speaking to the director or his coach, not me. Immediately into the second bout, the other boy was carded for crossing his feet. My son went on to win both bouts and advance to the quarter finals. The coach/father began to scream at anyone who would listen. He went to the bout committee and carried on for a long time and by then was accusing me of yelling out to his son to intimidate him. I had to be interviewed by the bout committee members about what I supposedly did to "harass" the boy. The bout committee member who spoke to me realized that I had video taped the entire bout and at the time had severe laryngitis so I obviously wasn't yelling at the other boy. Thank god for video tape!! But the finale was when this coach/parent came to my son's strip side during his quarter final bout and began screaming at him "See - cheaters don't win in the end - you're a cheater!" - while he was fencing!!! I have to say, that's when many of the parents and coaches in the area just said enough was enough and decended on him - there was almost a fist fight. I was amazed at how many parents and other coaches came to my son's defense - people I didn't even know, but had been sitting strip side watching their own children and had to listen to this fool. Finally, some of the men in the area (parents and coaches) threatened to take this guy "outside". The guy was an idiot!! After all was said and done, he finally left us alone. Needless to say, my son lost the bout, he says was so focused that he doesn't remember any of the chaos. A member of the bout committee approached us afterwards and said that this gent has a history of being "difficult" and if he gave us any futher trouble we were to report him immediately to the bout committee and it would be taken care of. We have friends whose children fence in this guys division and their comments were "we're used to this - we deal with this all the time". This is a person who needs to be dealt with.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by DonnaP

and at the time had severe laryngitis

Well no wonder, if you were screaming at your son's opponents all day to intimidate them.... ;)

-B

[Cookeit]

I would LOVE to have a mean, aggressive, strict coach.

It would be 69x better than my team's coach who babies everyone.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Cookeit

I would LOVE to have a mean, aggressive, strict coach.

It would be 69x better than my team's coach who babies everyone.

Which is a good point; different people work better under different coaching methods.

Also, telling a fencer that they should have won a bout and that they're going to have to do push ups for not winning isn't supportive, but there's really nothing like verbal abuse involved.

I'm not saying there aren't coaches that really cross the line, I'm just not sure that this is a good example. Then again, I wasn't there.

[fencerwallet]

Originally Posted by DonnaP

What about scraming at other fencers....

I don't know if this is the same incident, however, my family and several friends were involved in a very ugly incident with a Parent/coach at the Tuscon NAC this past year....

But the finale was when this coach/parent came to my son's strip side during his quarter final bout and began screaming at him "See - cheaters don't win in the end - you're a cheater!" - while he was fencing!!! I have to say, that's when many of the parents and coaches in the area just said enough was enough and decended on him - there was almost a fist fight. I was amazed at how many parents and other coaches came to my son's defense - people I didn't even know, but had been sitting strip side watching their own children and had to listen to this fool. Finally, some of the men in the area (parents and coaches) threatened to take this guy "outside". The guy was an idiot!!

I do believe this was the incident. My son's coach was the one who stepped between them. BTW, according to your account, your son was then my son's victim.

P.S., I did talk to this parent/coach involved months later at SN, not specifically about this incident, but just small talk. He seemed okay. I think he's just very competitive, and coaching your own child is, well, sometimes not an easy thing. Of course, his son made top 8 at SN, too, so he was in a good mood...

[HDG]

I'd just like my coach to actually show up when I fence...

[DonnaP]

Originally Posted by fencerwallet

I do believe this was the incident. My son's coach was the one who stepped between them. BTW, according to your account, your son was then my son's victim.

Yes, your son was the victor that day - he is a very strong and talented fencer and we look forward to another match up!! I am very sorry that your coach got involved - we had no way of knowing that the anger would have continued that far.

I agree with you that it can be very difficult to be a coach and a parent simultaneously and have seen this create even more stress between the "coach" and fencer since it ultimately ends up going home with you. I guess for me it I was just so surprised at the intense level of negativity and eventual personal attacks. We have been traveling for about two years now and have met so many wonderful families from all over the country and look forward to seeing them at the next event. I have read about stories like this but had just never expected to be part of one.

But taking this all back to how coaches treat fencers, I think they also need to be thoughtful of how their actions affect all of the fencers, not just the one they are coaching. Luckily we have a wonderful coach who I feel balances when to push and when to praise. I'm sure we'll run into you at Dallas, good luck to your son!

[annacattiva]

Last year I was reffing at an SYC, Y10 girls' foil. I had one bout, DEs, so 3 5-touch bouts, with an incredibly highly strung coach. The fencer started crying in the middle of the first bout. What do you do? I went up and asked if she was OK. I thought maybe she'd gotten hurt. She sobbed through her mask "No, it's fine." She cried through the entire rest of the bout and the next two as well. All the while, her coach was screaming at her (and a little bit at me) from the sidelines.

One of the things that can happen in these cases (which I admittedly didn't do, but next time I won't make the same mistake) is that the referee can start handing out cards. It's not ideal, and it's particularly problematic if the coach is a parent and is the only support a small kid has at a competition. (I know someone who black carded a whole family: the father for swearing at the ref and then repeating it when the ref said "Excuse me?", and then the son for not showing up on strip at the next call, because he had to leave with his father.) However, dropping a spectator's yellow card does let the person know that their behavior is unacceptable.

Slightly more on topic, though: I'm not entirely convinced that the really young Y events are even a good idea, and it's partly because it's encouraging this type of competitiveness among their coaches and therefore among the fencers as well. The abuse theme just brings this home: in many cases we're talking about students who are young enough that they're not even comfortable recognizing whether their coach's more or less aggressive style is good or bad for them. Some people on here have said that they find aggressive coaches are good for them; when we're talking about a 10-year old, though, it's much harder to get such self-perception. And when the coaches are allowed to make competitors out of students who very often are fencing at a level where half of the actions are random and uncontrolled, then everyone is frustrated: the coach because their student is losing or not fencing as well as they "should", the student because they're not necessarily even capable of producing the changes the coach is trying to get during the bout, the parents because they see their child not succeeding, or because they are not happy with the coaching, and the refs because we have to watch the whole mess and make sure everyone gets home whole at the end of the day.

Just my thoughts.

Anna

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Dr Epee

At the most recent Atlanta SN. I was watching a DE bout in cadet WF. At the end of the first period, a girl wearing a Fencer's Club patch was losing to her opponent, something like 5-7. The FC girl appeared to be well coached, had good form, and seemed to be doing the right things. The opponent was all hunched over like a Neanderthal and counterattacked almost exclusively in a style that's become all too common of late (thanks Rene). At the break, the first girl's coach (also wearing a FC warmup) lit into her on the strip verbally, such that she was sobbing at the end of the minute break. Needless to say she proceeded to fall apart and lost something like 7-15. Afterwards, the coach made a comment to her that was very short and vehement, threw her towel at her and stomped off, leaving her to be consoled by her friends. I've never wanted a baseball bat more in my life.

My point here is, Fencer's Club is (or was) supposed to be the pinnacle of the US fencing establishment. If that's an example, I want none of it.

You see abuse and you see the short term failure as a result, but it may be part of a bigger plan. I can't say either way, but there certainly exists the possibility for increased future success as a result of causing a massive breakdown at this tournament.

[Peach]

Originally Posted by prototoast

You see abuse and you see the short term failure as a result, but it may be part of a bigger plan. I can't say either way, but there certainly exists the possibility for increased future success as a result of causing a massive breakdown at this tournament.

I don't buy that argument for the method. Causing a breakdown, while having a deep tradition in human history, does not appeal because it's effective; it appeals because the idea of being able to force your will on someone else has an intuitive joy to it. Ask anyone who has had siblings. And then ask them how well it works

Besides, whether or not it's part of a bigger plan strikes me as being a side issue, because that's the "You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs" argument which has justified everything up to mass genocide. If a method is essentially immoral, it's immoral, no matter what the aim.

I certainly have had my (eleven-year-old) students cry, but not because I berate them or storm off after throwing things at them It's usually because they are unprepared and are hoping I won't notice, and I hand out homework notices because don't think it's fair not to let students experience the consequences of their actions. The coach berating his student is one who shows he takes the student's failure personally and can't accept it. I, on the other hand, think a student's failure is a useful experience and a teachable moment, and to get angry about it is missing the point.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by Peach

If a method is essentially immoral, it's immoral, no matter what the aim.

You're a fine Kantian Peach.

[dcmdale]

To the extent that coaching is a form of teaching, I think that most of us have had teachers that were strict, demanding, and generally hated, but in retrospect were the ones that taught us the most. "Strict," "precise," "demanding," "pushing-to-excellence," "hard-working" are all attributes of a legitimate coaching style. I wouldn't want every coach to be that way, but this type of coach meets the needs of certain types of athletes.

"Abusive" is not.

Most of us here have "read the Parent's Handbook" (as Mo has put it) and are going to protect our own kids, but if you have been around much you've seen plenty of abuse of other fencers--often in the presence of the kid's parents.

Question: Is there (and, if not, should there be) a Code of Ethics for coaches who coach at USFA sanctioned events or coach at USFA member clubs? Other (possibly more practical) approaches?