Italian grip thoughts

[Carlos37]

Do you think the FIE are ever gonna allow italian grip on foil or epee?Have you ever tried an italian grip?I wonder if they sell it...

[HDG]

Originally Posted by Carlos37

Do you think the FIE are ever gonna allow italian grip on foil or epee?Have you ever tried an italian grip?I wonder if they sell it...

Since when does the FIE not allow it? Cite a rule or an instance.

They are not sold widely, but they are sold. You're in Europe, check Negrini.

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by Carlos37

Do you think the FIE are ever gonna allow italian grip on foil or epee?Have you ever tried an italian grip?I wonder if they sell it...

It's legal, no one good uses it because they're dated, pointless, and an abomination.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

It's legal, no one good uses it because they're dated, pointless, and an abomination.

I was thinking about going this route, but I opted for helpful...

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by HDG

I was thinking about going this route, but I opted for helpful...

Refusing to help someone get an Italian is the helpful route.

[Hauptman]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

It's legal, no one good uses it because they're dated, pointless, and an abomination.

Ignore the mindless opinions of people who hate what they don't understand. If you like the grip then use it, if you don't like it then don't use it. Personally, I have used just about every grip out there over the years and find that the italian has it's advantages and disadvantages.... now get this... just like every other grip!! Shocking, ain't it? :P

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by Hauptman

Ignore the mindless opinions of people who hate what they don't understand. If you like the grip then use it, if you don't like it then don't use it. Personally, I have used just about every grip out there over the years and find that the italian has it's advantages and disadvantages.... now get this... just like every other grip!! Shocking, ain't it? :P

Name one person on any points list that fences with one. There was a point to fencing with an Italian when the options were either Italian or French, it was a useful and viable option at one point. Notice I only said that nobody who is any good uses one, I didn't make any comments about people fencing with it just for the challenge of fencing with a handicap. Put some thought into your posts before you try and call bull**** on someone.

[the ancient one]

Hmmm....

I wish all my opponents used an Italian grip.

Yeah.

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by Hauptman

Ignore the mindless opinions of people who hate what they don't understand. If you like the grip then use it, if you don't like it then don't use it. Personally, I have used just about every grip out there over the years and find that the italian has it's advantages and disadvantages.... now get this... just like every other grip!! Shocking, ain't it? :P

Just so you know, endorsing the Italian grip is like the secret forum handshake of people who are bad classical fencers.

[piste off]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

Name one person on any points list that fences with one.

I am sure that we can find one if you don't hold that to the current point list, but allow us to go as far back as '00.

Rick


P.S. 1900 that is.

[fatfencer]

the combination of prongs, pommel and strap might be good for someone with Carpal Tunnel/RSI.

It can be helpful; not even i would argue that it isn't outdated, but if its the difference between someone fencing and not I say use it.

FatHobbes

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Hauptman

Ignore the mindless opinions of people who hate what they don't understand. If you like the grip then use it, if you don't like it then don't use it. Personally, I have used just about every grip out there over the years and find that the italian has it's advantages and disadvantages.... now get this... just like every other grip!! Shocking, ain't it? :P

Its disadvantages are greater than the advantages. It is completely beyond me why you would want to step on the strip with a disadvantage, however small. You can fence with an Italian grip if you want. You can wear an extra large lame, or set your springs to twice the minimum weight. They have their advantages too. But....why....

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

It's legal, no one good uses it because they're dated, pointless, and an abomination.

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

Name one person on any points list that fences with one. There was a point to fencing with an Italian when the options were either Italian or French, it was a useful and viable option at one point. Notice I only said that nobody who is any good uses one, I didn't make any comments about people fencing with it just for the challenge of fencing with a handicap. Put some thought into your posts before you try and call bull**** on someone.

Out of curiosity, why the extreme vehemence on your part?

I agree with most of what others have posted - the disadvantages of the Italian grip certainly outweigh its advantages in modern fencing and I doubt anyone has used them in high level competition in decades. However that doesn't make Italian grips an "abomination". It merely makes them artifacts of the past which were once widely used but have now been superseded by something more effective, much like the automobile has replaced the horse and buggy.

If anything the orthopedic grip might be considered an "abomination" (at least by classical fencers), because for the most part orthopedic grips are mutated versions of their "true" grips. However what they call "mutation" the rest of us call "evolution". Orthopedic grips have survived and prospered (to the detriment of both French and Italian grips) simply because they offer sufficient advantages to outweigh any disadvantages.

If this qualifies as calling bull****, then consider yourself called. Then learn to put some thought into your own posts.

[forethought]

When I bought my electric Italian from Negrini it came with an 88cm France Lame true ricasso blade that had an FIE stamp on it (though I have my doubts as to whether or not it's really maraging steel). On a whim, I checked their website about a week ago and they are no longer selling electric Italian weapons with true ricasso blades. Uhlmann, however, does sell true ricasso blades, which I suspect are made by BF, though I couldn't get anyone at Uhlmann to confirm this when I emailed them. I have two of these blades, and they are quite nice.

There are no true ricasso Italian blades being made right now that are made from maraging steel, so they would not be allowed in an FIE sanctioned tournament, and don't get your hopes up of anyone ever making any. Personally, I like the grip, and use it almost exclusively, but then again, I'm an idiot and a nobody.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by SJCFU#2

Out of curiosity, why the extreme vehemence on your part?

I am sure that RF can leap in and defend himself but Hauptman appeared to let the heavy irony of that post fly over his head. I can understand RF's reaction as a result.

If anything the orthopedic grip might be considered an "abomination" (at least by classical fencers), because for the most part orthopedic grips are mutated versions of their "true" grips. However what they call "mutation" the rest of us call "evolution". Orthopedic grips have survived and prospered (to the detriment of both French and Italian grips) simply because they offer sufficient advantages to outweigh any disadvantages.

Why would you think this? Why would a classical fencer think this?

Ortho' grips of one for or another have been around for a long time. There are perfectly good reasons for their being Orho' grips.

And you are really really really wrong about the french grip. It's not obsolete - why would you think otherwise?

If this qualifies as calling bull****, then consider yourself called. Then learn to put some thought into your own posts.

I call yours as well.

Put more thought into your posts.

Before anyone points them out - any typos or grammar stuff is intentional.

[samster]

I've seen them on http://www.amfence.com/html/10.html. Both true and false ricasso versions. Have never used one. They look like they might hurt.

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by Gav

I am sure that RF can leap in and defend himself but Hauptman appeared to let the heavy irony of that post fly over his head. I can understand RF's reaction as a result...
I call yours as well.

And I shall respond.

I wasn't so much bothered by RF's initial posts - to me it appeared to be a quick, off-the-hip response. Given that other people had provided responses that addressed the OP's question in clearer terms, I probably would have ignored it entirely if not for the "in-your-face" attitude of his second posting. Perhaps if RF had recognized that his wit might not have carried through to the reader, and simply restated his position in a more straight-forward manner (the Italian grips in pretty much unheard of in higher levels because orthopedic grips are considered superior) we might have been spared this discussion.

Originally Posted by Gav

Why would you think this? Why would a classical fencer think this?

Ortho' grips of one for or another have been around for a long time. There are perfectly good reasons for their being Orho' grips.

Personally I don't consider orthopedic grips an abomination - I consider them the superior product of an evolutionary process. However while orthopedic grips have been around for the better part of a century, the Italian grip still predates it by a considerable amount. Therefore I can understand why some classical fencers, filled with disdain for what they see as any modern aberration, might consider orthopedic grips an abomination. And given that it is difficult to classify something an "abomination" without first comparing it to an existing standard (in this case the traditional French and Italian grips), they might even be justified in their opinion - at least in their own minds. Personally I don't care what they think so long as they don't try to force their opinion onto the rest of us.

Originally Posted by Gav

And you are really really really wrong about the french grip. It's not obsolete - why would you think otherwise?

I never said that the French grip was obsolete. What I said was that the orthopedic grip had prospered at the expense of both the French and Italian grips. The French grip has certainly held its own in certain areas, but its popularity has declined in others (based on various discussion I would estimate that roughly half the high-level épéeist choose French grips over orthopedic grips, but fewer than 10% of high-level foilist). The Italian grip has simply fared worse - given the difficulty finding a blade with a false ricasso it appears that the traditional Italian grip may be teetering on the brink of extinction.

[neintoon]

I think that Italian grips are awesome! They look good on the wall of the salle!

[needle]

Originally Posted by neintoon

I think that Italian grips are awesome! They look good on the wall of the salle!

I was thinking of using one for toilet flush lever

[Hauptman]

All these heated words... my oh my....

I made a useful, even-handed, reply to the original poster, as opposed to the many extreme and skewed posts I've seen.

And if I called someone on their obviously "well-thought out" label of point-less abomination, well then I must just be a worthless human being.