Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

jeff · 10-08-2007, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forethought

Are you saying you can't use an Italian with finesse?

Really, what would stop you from manipulating the point with your fingers?

By funny coincidence, that's exactly what French school fencers said about the Italian grip (and school) about 100 years ago. Okay, up to about 75 years ago.

If used properly, an Italian grip is manipulated with the main 3 fingers. It's quite uncomfortable and fatiguing, and harder to do well than with the other grips, but it can be done.

But that's the point about the Italian grip. With few exceptions, you can do most things with it that are done with French and pistol - it's just uniformly more difficult. Why run track events with weights strapped to your ankles?

jeff · 10-08-2007, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forethought

(snip)Not everyone likes to flick. Or in-fight. Or riposte a fleche from behind their back. These actions are easier with pistol grips than with the Italian, and that (the extreme hand angulations) are about the only significant difference between them.

Definitely not true. The Italian grip went out of business a few decades before the flick was invented, and whether "like" to in-fight is irrelevant: if you use a weapon that makes it more difficult you put yourself at a disadvantage to everyone else - you get hit more. Quibble about "significant" differences if you like: the two are held completely differently (Italian, held correctly, is gripped along the corners/edges of the blade and crossbar, rather than along aluminum or plastic designed to align with your hand). Not surprisingly, they are substantially different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by forethought

The way people on this forum talk it's like fencing with an Italian grip is the same as fencing with a piece of rebar wrapped in burlap. You don't like it, fine, but that doesn't mean it's useless.

It's not useless, but it is demonstrably inferior. In a post (I think RITfencing linked to it recently, I described some of the reasons) To claim otherwise is to assert that 40+ years of results oriented fencers at every level - many thousands of them - abandoned the grip for silly reasons. Much more rational to accept that there are sufficient deficiencies of the grip to convince almost all but a few to switch.

fatfencer · 10-08-2007, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I_luv_saber

Wouldn't this make it illegal as some of the French/Pistol combo grips are? Actually asking as a question, because I don't know...

No. it's still a 2 pronged italian grip.. but instead of a straight handle it is curved down and over a la the end portion of a french. You can only hold and italian in one position. Modifying it to be more hand friendly just serves to further that end.

As for flicking, its now a low percentage shot. I'm not talking about chest flicks or the shoulder, I'm talking about the deep back flicks. They are just tough to land. Look at how much closing in and counter attacking is happening. Look at how much prep is being called. It's risky to flick although its a great feint.

I will say that once I can build it the way I'd like and make it look classy I may even offer the grip for sale.

piste off · 10-08-2007, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowstix

how does the strength translate into speed?? have you ever tried the carbon fibre LP grips (can they be even classified as "french grips")?? no loss of strength for me there; coupes/flicks/whips/opposition/beats/wacks/binds work equally as well (or poorly,

).

Yeah, I think that I have tried them once or twice. I've also tried every other type of french grip, including sabre grips and the Italian S-curved ones.

The main advantage to all of the above is added reach through pommeling. You sacrifice power, accuracy and speed for that advantage.

Rick

telkanuru · 10-08-2007, 11:17 PM

There was a lot to read in this thread, but I just gave up and burst out laughing when someone said Div III was "significant"...

RF is a pretty damn good fencer, and I beat him up, so my opinion counts more, just FYI.

Also, Italian grips are retarded.

RebelFencer · 10-09-2007, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telkanuru

There was a lot to read in this thread, but I just gave up and burst out laughing when someone said Div III was "significant"...

RF is a pretty damn good fencer, and I beat him up, so my opinion counts more, just FYI.

Also, Italian grips are retarded.

haha, I'm not going to pull the bad day copout. You fenced really well and are a very solid fencer (But I beat our Russian who beat you up).

MyrddinsPrecint · 10-09-2007, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

You fenced really well and WERE a very solid fencer.

Fixed that one for you.

These days...... he's more a guy who owns fencing gear.

RebelFencer · 10-09-2007, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

Fixed that one for you.

These days...... he's more a guy who owns fencing gear.

So it's true. Women do make your legs weak.

MyrddinsPrecint · 10-09-2007, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

So it's true. Women do make your legs weak.

If that's true, he's got another woman, 'cause I haven't seen him in... almost a month due to..... complications.

RebelFencer · 10-09-2007, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

If that's true, he's got another woman, 'cause I haven't seen him in... almost a month due to..... complications.

You broke it, didn't you? Now he's going to need corrective surgery and be gunshy for life.

MyrddinsPrecint · 10-09-2007, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

You broke it, didn't you? Now he's going to need corrective surgery and be gunshy for life.

Broken long before I got to the scene.......

RebelFencer · 10-10-2007, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

Broken long before I got to the scene.......

I was inferring odd 90 degree angle (I almost typed "bangel") bend. I pray that that isn't what you were meaning. Although what guy wouldn't want to get action from around corners?

KD5MDK · 10-10-2007, 04:57 PM

Someone who likes the looks of who they're with?

MyrddinsPrecint · 10-10-2007, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

I was inferring odd 90 degree angle (I almost typed "bangel") bend. I pray that that isn't what you were meaning. Although what guy wouldn't want to get action from around corners?

And I was blatantly ignoring this, and talking about his MIND.

jfarmer · 10-10-2007, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

And I was blatantly ignoring this, and talking about his MIND.

Hmmm, I'm thinking that this thread is heading off into TMI real quick....

MyrddinsPrecint · 10-10-2007, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfarmer

Hmmm, I'm thinking that this thread is heading off into TMI real quick....

And for once it's not my fault at all.

KD5MDK · 10-11-2007, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

And for once it's not my fault at all.

Dare I say, did you undershare?

Phaeton · 10-11-2007, 12:34 AM

There's one solution to this thread: Drop your french, italian, and pistol grips and fence sabre. You know you'll all be better off in the end.

MyrddinsPrecint · 10-11-2007, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Dare I say, did you undershare?

I'm not sure at this juncture--- perhaps I'll answer your question, at some point, somewhere.... Maybe.