Italian grip thoughts

[HDG]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I've never used a wooden bat for baseball, but I can tell you they're not as good as aluminum.

Never?

[I_luv_saber]

methinks I see the ability for some serious thread drift coming up

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by HDG

Never?

I'm not really sure. I probably have. I haven't played much baseball.

Anyway, to continue my analogy, pistol grips allow greater strength and blade control, and that's it.

However, Italian grips do look cool. Remember, they're the only symmetrical grip.

[fatfencer]

Than a grip strapped to your arm?

Doubt it. It's very easy to disarm people with it. 2 years ago when my hand really flamed up I disarmed most everyone I fenced at least once at a tournament that I used it exclusively.

Comfort is a main issue, though. There's nothing in the rules that say you can't make the handle part more ergonomic and more hand fitting.

You can't strap a french grip to your arm, but you CAN make an Italian more comfortable and THEN strap it your arm. Try that with a Visconti!!

I use visconti smalls and its killing me.

Once I can find a machinist who can make me what I want I'll be set.

Pistol grips are really an amalgam of purpose. the prongs provide power but otherwise its just a tube that fits like a french, down the diagonal of your hand. I don't believe that it accomplishes either purpose. It's not as easy to hold as a tube, nor do you really have the power of an Italian.

Just my thoughts.

FF

[I_luv_saber]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I'm not really sure. I probably have. I haven't played much baseball.

Anyway, to continue my analogy, pistol grips allow greater strength and blade control, and that's it.

However, Italian grips do look cool. Remember, they're the only symmetrical grip.

I can't really believe that a pistol grip would give more strength unless you have the death grip. But really, whether that's a good thing or not is left for users to decide. My point is, the Italian grip DOES have points to offer... it isn't simply an outdated pistol grip.

But I really don't wanna get in a long argument over whether the Italian grip is better or not. The French grip is also not entirely useless. It has it's good points, though many people prefer a pistol grip. However, popularity in and of itself is not a reason for making the pistol grip "the best". Not saying there are no other reasons, but that's a weak reason... popularity ain't always right.

[I_luv_saber]

Originally Posted by fatfencer

Comfort is a main issue, though. There's nothing in the rules that say you can't make the handle part more ergonomic and more hand fitting.

Wouldn't this make it illegal as some of the French/Pistol combo grips are? Actually asking as a question, because I don't know...

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by I_luv_saber

My point is, the Italian grip DOES have points to offer... it isn't simply an outdated pistol grip.

How do you arrive at that point? I only ask because it's untrue.

As long as we're making points with no supporting evidence, my point is that the Italian makes blades break more frequently.

[I_luv_saber]

Besides the fact it's completely different construction?

While we're at it, many pistol grips you hold very slightly differently than a French, so why go with pistol and lose the advantage of being able to post?

They are different grips, apples and oranges....

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by I_luv_saber

Besides the fact it's completely different construction?

While we're at it, many pistol grips you hold very slightly differently than a French, so why go with pistol and lose the advantage of being able to post?

They are different grips, apples and oranges....

I can break a French grip so it's unusable and yell "apples and oranges" or "differentdifferentdifferent" at the top of my voice, but it's still useless on a foil. Just because it's different doesn't means it brings something to the table.

We're not comparing two dissimilar objects. They are both used for the purpose of manipulating a weapon to touch without being touched, and pistols allow a fencer to do that better.

Peter Joppich using an Italian could beat me, he wouldn't have a chance against his peers, which is really what counts. One could say the grip is very slightly a disadvantage.

[I_luv_saber]

I can break a French grip so it's unusable and yell "apples and oranges" or "differentdifferentdifferent" at the top of my voice, but it's still useless on a foil. Just because it's different doesn't means it brings something to the table.

Actually I didn't say that...

Originally Posted by myself

My point is, the Italian grip DOES have points to offer... it isn't simply an outdated pistol grip.

You might want to actually, ya know, read my post before respondng. I specifically said otherwise. If you want to disagree with the bold text, go for it, but don't put words in my mouth.

We're not comparing two dissimilar objects. They are both used for the purpose of manipulating a weapon to touch without being touched, and pistols allow a fencer to do that better.

True enough, but the construction achieves this in two different ways.

Peter Joppich using an Italian could beat me, he wouldn't have a chance against his peers, which is really what counts. One could say the grip is very slightly a disadvantage.

Firstly, these seem to kinda contradict, but that being said, I would come nearer to agreeing with the second statement, while saying it does have other advantages in its place.

[RebelFencer]

The only thing it can offer is more power, and when you're at that high a level you can get all the power you need from a pistol... plus the added finesse. Italians are just not as good and are dated, it's not that big a point to concede.

[I_luv_saber]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

The only thing it can offer is more power, and when you're at that high a level you can get all the power you need from a pistol... plus the added finesse. Italians are just not as good and are dated, it's not that big a point to concede.

I agree with the first point mostly. But for some people that is an advantage, and that's my point. The Italian DOES bring something to the table that some people see as good (and not just because it's different). True, usually a pistol grip is going to be better, but that's not to say that the advantages of an Italian grip are non-existent or are no good to anybody... it's left to the judgment of the fencer.

And being popular or unpopular is not an immediate ruling on it....

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by I_luv_saber

I agree with the first point mostly. But for some people that is an advantage, and that's my point. The Italian DOES bring something to the table that some people see as good (and not just because it's different). True, usually a pistol grip is going to be better, but that's not to say that the advantages of an Italian grip are non-existent or are no good to anybody... it's left to the judgment of the fencer.

And being popular or unpopular is not an immediate ruling on it....

It has everything to do with it! If its advantages were greater than those of the pistol it would be in circulation! I promise!

[Gav]

Can someone tell me why Italian grips are so "popular" (or just why people are so fascinated by them) in the US*?

I hadn't heard of one outside of history books and as a curiosity until I started reading these boards.

* or does this board just have an unusually large population of recidivists?

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Gav

Can someone tell me why Italian grips are so "popular" (or just why people are so fascinated by them) in the US*?

I hadn't heard of one outside of historys book and as a curiosity until I started reading these boards.

* or does this board just have an unusually large population of recidivists?

I've seen two fencers in tournaments use one in about 4 years of competitive fencing, and chances are very good that they were actually the same person. They're quite uncommon.

Many of the people who defend them here used to use them, but have switched grips for some reason.

[forethought]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

The only thing it can offer is more power, and when you're at that high a level you can get all the power you need from a pistol... plus the added finesse. Italians are just not as good and are dated, it's not that big a point to concede.

Are you saying you can't use an Italian with finesse?

Really, what would stop you from manipulating the point with your fingers?

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by forethought

Are you saying you can't use an Italian with finesse?

Really, what would stop you from manipulating the point with your fingers?

Listen, ultimately my point is that if you trained hard enough you could be a pretty decent fencer with an Italian grip since most of fencing is distance and footwork anyways. But at an Elite level there must be some flaw in the grip because of the fact that it is not used at all. Period. You can say all you want about what could happen, but the reality is that it is dated. This is shown, again, by its nonexistant following in the Elite ranks.

[I_luv_saber]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

It has everything to do with it! If its advantages were greater than those of the pistol it would be in circulation! I promise!

I never said it yielded greater advantages, did I? If you can find a quote where I said that, I am very sorry, because I don't believe that.

I am saying it gives you different advantages than a pistol grip. And what I was trying to get at in my original post, is that those advantages tend to not play towards modern sport fencing mostly ( said much more bluntly). But I'd still be hard pressed to believe that if a top rated fencer, especially one already fencing with a French, would fence visibly dramatically different. That's just my opinion though, and really doesn't have much to do with it, nor is it a point for the Italian grip.

I also still don't buy the 'because it's popular, it's good' argument. Past has shown that's not always true. (But I clearly said that pistol grip is gonna be the best choice for most fencers already. Hell, if for no other reason, simply because of the variety of styles...)

I really don't wanna carry on with the argument besides. It's horribly, horribly redundant....

Besides, if we wanna talk best grip, the obvious answer is 'saber grip' anyways