Italian grip thoughts

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Hauptman

Insults followed by ignorance. You've instructed us all. It was fun, now it's sad.

You do realize that we'd take your argument more seriously if you weren't so arrogant, right?

[fatfencer]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

It's always good to bring age into an argument when one no longer has any relevent points to make. I'd be upset if I'd spent 25 years fencing with no notable results as well.

I'm dying to know. Do YOU have any 'notable' results in fencing?? I haven't taken the time to research who you are or what you've done in fencing so I literally have no idea. But you talk like someone who has at least won several local opens and places well at Nacs and stuff. Please, for the uninitiated, tell us what YOU have done in fencing. Am I to understand that you are implying that you have spent 25 years in fencing WITH 'notable' results?

OR

Are you Implying that you have posted notable results in FAR LESS time?

Again, for the underinitiated like myself, please tell us your best results.

Here. I'll start off. My best placing was Top 8 at a Div 3 NAC in Foil.

Fatfencer

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by fatfencer

I'm dying to know. Do YOU have any 'notable' results in fencing?? I haven't taken the time to research who you are or what you've done in fencing so I literally have no idea. But you talk like someone who has at least won several local opens and places well at Nacs and stuff. Please, for the uninitiated, tell us what YOU have done in fencing. Am I to understand that you are implying that you have spent 25 years in fencing WITH 'notable' results?

OR

Are you Implying that you have posted notable results in FAR LESS time?

Again, for the underinitiated like myself, please tell us your best results.

Here. I'll start off. My best placing was Top 8 at a Div 3 NAC in Foil.

Fatfencer

I've seen him fence; he's not bad. In epee, if he were low rated enough, I would be very surprised if he didn't take top 4 or win a div 3 NAC.

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by fatfencer

I'm dying to know. Do YOU have any 'notable' results in fencing?? I haven't taken the time to research who you are or what you've done in fencing so I literally have no idea. But you talk like someone who has at least won several local opens and places well at Nacs and stuff. Please, for the uninitiated, tell us what YOU have done in fencing. Am I to understand that you are implying that you have spent 25 years in fencing WITH 'notable' results?

OR

Are you Implying that you have posted notable results in FAR LESS time?

Again, for the underinitiated like myself, please tell us your best results.

Here. I'll start off. My best placing was Top 8 at a Div 3 NAC in Foil.

Fatfencer

I haven't made points yet, so I don't consider my results notable.

I have medalled in every Epee' tournament except for 3 local and the Div 1 NACs for the past two years, earned my A five times, own wins over the Div 1 National champion (pool bout), a former top 8 in country (pool bout), and someone else on the points list (pool and DE). I was runner up in the Southeast sectionals last year as well. In the first two Div 1s last season (the only ones I could afford) I placed in the upper 80s out of over 200 in each event and went 4-2 in my pools.

Please note that I am only supplying this information since FatFencer asked. I don't consider this notable, but am pretty sure I'll make points in far less than 25 years.

EDIT:: Also, I earned my B my second year (albeit I wasn't a strong B when I got it)... so I never got to fence Div II/III, hence the lack of those results.) Might I add, I would probably at least be in the top 4 of a Div II. *hands on hip*

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

Might I add, I would probably at least be in the top 4 of a Div II. *hands on hip*

Pfft, I dunno about that.

Nah, I'm sure you would. The reason I said div 3 is because that's what ff was talking about.

[forethought]

Originally Posted by hobo386

Out of curiosity, what are the actual disadvantages of an Italian foil that are so enormous? From what I can tell, they seem to share both advantages and disadvantages of French and Pistol grips, but what arguments are there against them other than "Italian grips suck!" and "Noone uses them anymore, so they must suck!"?

With the exception of Rick who answered you previously in this thread, I have asked the same question a few times on this board when the topic has come up, and no one will give me even a semblance of a logical reason why the Italian is bad. Most, I suspect, have either never used one, or have not used one for any significant amount of time needed to adjust to the grip (there was one member, jeff, who gave his credentials on fencing with the grip, said he hated it, but never said why).

I spelled out a few things in regards to my personal view in this post. Please bear in mind that I have had no proper training in classical Italian foil technique, and I suspect that should I ever get around to it, I would find there to be even more advantages/uses for the grip (and quite possibly a few more limitations).

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by forethought

With the exception of Rick who answered you previously in this thread, I have asked the same question a few times on this board when the topic has come up, and no one will give me even a semblance of a logical reason why the Italian is bad. Most, I suspect, have either never used one, or have not used one for any significant amount of time needed to adjust to the grip (there was one member, jeff, who gave his credentials on fencing with the grip, said he hated it, but never said why).

I spelled out a few things in regards to my personal view in this post. Please bear in mind that I have had no proper training in classical Italian foil technique, and I suspect that should I ever get around to it, I would find there to be even more advantages/uses for the grip (and quite possibly a few more limitations).

Classical Italien Grip

Does anybody use a traditional italian grip?

That's a small start with a few minutes of searching through my own posts.

[jeff]

The first of the two links above (thanks, RITfencing!) has a post in which I describe technical reasons that the Italian grip is inferior. I could go on at longer length, but that should do do trick.

As forethought recalls, I have had classical Italian foil training, so I know whereof I speak, and don't disparage the grip without knowing it. I'll also ask forethought again (what is this, the 3rd time?) what his qualifications are. Or is he praising the grip without knowing it? It's just as silly to praise a handle without knowing what you're talking about as it is to disparage it without knowing what you're talking about.

To another tack: a difference between French and Italian grips today is that there are still effective French grip foilists at least at the local competition level (I know several), where there are no Italian grip foilists. Also, in living memory (at least for me) there were international-level fencers who used French grips - certainly into the 1980s and early 1990s, whereas use of the Italian grip at that level had died out long before.

[Hauptman]

Originally Posted by forethought

With the exception of Rick who answered you previously in this thread, I have asked the same question a few times on this board when the topic has come up, and no one will give me even a semblance of a logical reason why the Italian is bad. Most, I suspect, have either never used one, or have not used one for any significant amount of time needed to adjust to the grip (there was one member, jeff, who gave his credentials on fencing with the grip, said he hated it, but never said why).

I spelled out a few things in regards to my personal view in this post. Please bear in mind that I have had no proper training in classical Italian foil technique, and I suspect that should I ever get around to it, I would find there to be even more advantages/uses for the grip (and quite possibly a few more limitations).

For me, the italian grip gives a great feel for the blade with your fingers resting on the ricasso. It is just made for those actions on the blade (think italian old school fencing) and I found it nice in foil. In epee I like to have more of a focus on the point and so didn't like the feel. And in general I like to fence with absence of the blade so I don't use an italian these days. It really needs a wrist strap as well, which some people find very retrictive although that also depends on how you adjust it. It can take a long while to really get comfortable with the italian (or french) grip. Pistol grips feel good right from the start which of course is a part of their popularity.

I don't advocate one grip over another, just that you need to find out for yourself what works for you; as I've said I mostly use the russian grip. I've fenced with a variety of weapons and had a variety of coaches over the years, including about 6 years using an italian grip while training with an italian master.

[french grip foilist]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Quick note about the french grip that I think many posters don't realize: It can be used like a normal french grip, too. That means that you can use the same weapon for either strong blade actions or extra reach/angulation. Why give up one or the other when the versatility of the grip is one of its #1 features?

Versatility is one of the french grips top features, there are 8 different ways to hold it that I know of and you can do a lot of cool stuff with each of the different grips

[forethought]

Originally Posted by jeff

I'll also ask forethought again (what is this, the 3rd time?) what his qualifications are. Or is he praising the grip without knowing it? It's just as silly to praise a handle without knowing what you're talking about as it is to disparage it without knowing what you're talking about.

My qualifications? I've used it for over three years pretty much exclusively, and I'd like to think that given my experience and the level at which I've been able to fence at I've done just as well fencing with an Italian than I would have had I been using a pistol grip.

I dunno, for me and they way I fence, the Italian grip works *shrugs*

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by forethought

My qualifications? I've used it for over three years pretty much exclusively, and I'd like to think that given my experience and the level at which I've been able to fence at I've done just as well fencing with an Italian than I would have had I been using a pistol grip.

Unfortunately, two generations of fencers have found that to be untrue. You would have done better using a pistol grip.

Would you suddenly be a world champion? No. Would it make a huge difference? Probably not. Might it mean the difference between winning 15-14 and losing 15-14? Yes.

[I_luv_saber]

Just a few things...

Not saying Italian grip is bomb (yes, I used to be at it with more... fervor? Many apologies, forgive the starry-eyed begginer of the time ), but it is kinda BS to say "It sucks because no one good uses it." Psh, VCR and Betamax, that means nothing. Although I can't really see how the Italian grip offers huge advantages, or disadvantages, I think this is similar to the 2 prong/bayonet argument. It really doesn't matter much at all. All those world champions could still be world champions if they were fencing with Italian grips, or broomsticks.

If it's comfortable and fits you well, it's a good grip. Try them, and see what fits you best.

Also, that being said, many people DO tend to find the Italian grip hard on the hand. Different strokes...

[finnfence]

I know a woman who uses one because she has a problem with her wrist tendons, and she just ties the italian grip to her wrist and uses the blade like a stiff extension of her arm. It seems to be pretty slow and inaccurate, and not good for dealing with beat attacks or coupes, though it seems to be ok for disengages. I guess the pattern of movement reminds me most of the way epeeists use a french grip by holding onto the very end of it.

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by I_luv_saber

Just a few things...

Not saying Italian grip is bomb (yes, I used to be at it with more... fervor? Many apologies, forgive the starry-eyed begginer of the time ), but it is kinda BS to say "It sucks because no one good uses it." Psh, VCR and Betamax, that means nothing. Although I can't really see how the Italian grip offers huge advantages, or disadvantages, I think this is similar to the 2 prong/bayonet argument. It really doesn't matter much at all. All those world champions could still be world champions if they were fencing with Italian grips, or broomsticks.

If it's comfortable and fits you well, it's a good grip. Try them, and see what fits you best.

Also, that being said, many people DO tend to find the Italian grip hard on the hand. Different strokes...

I respect your opinion, but think you're wrong. Would World Champions be able to execute the actions that made them World Champions with an Italian grip as well as with a pistol? Probably not, which automatically puts them at a disadvantage.

Saying it's BS to say that they aren't good because no one good uses them is a total cop-out. If they were equal, then someone somewhere on some elite level would use one... if for nothing else, then to just be different. Sorry, the kindergarten mentality of "everything is equal and special in its own way" is kind of a pet peeve of mine. (again, not saying that you have the mentality of a kindergartener, but it's just the best way I could relay my point.)

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

EDIT:: Also, I earned my B my second year (albeit I wasn't a strong B when I got it)... so I never got to fence Div II/III, hence the lack of those results.) Might I add, I would probably at least be in the top 4 of a Div II. *hands on hip*

I'll add to his accomplishments....

He earned his B over 15 times. He beats me BADLY and I've made a Cadet top 8.

And he did it with a PISTOL GRIP!

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by piste off

The pistol grip (for me) gives better strength (which also translates into speed) and control (both on the blade actions and point accuracy). To me, it also gives a more natural feel for blade actions (apart from the strength) because of the position of the hand relative to the blade.

That is just me...

Rick

how does the strength translate into speed?? have you ever tried the carbon fibre LP grips (can they be even classified as "french grips")?? no loss of strength for me there; coupes/flicks/whips/opposition/beats/wacks/binds work equally as well (or poorly, ).

[I_luv_saber]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

Saying it's BS to say that they aren't good because no one good uses them is a total cop-out. If they were equal, then someone somewhere on some elite level would use one... if for nothing else, then to just be different. Sorry, the kindergarten mentality of "everything is equal and special in its own way" is kind of a pet peeve of mine. (again, not saying that you have the mentality of a kindergartener, but it's just the best way I could relay my point.)

Wasn't trying to take that standpoint (i.e. though world champs would still be if they had to fence with broomsticks, that doesn't mean it's an advantage), what I was trying to say is just because something isn't used, doesn't mean it's not good. Betamax had advantages over VCR, and you didn't see too many of them.

That being said, I don't think this is the case with the Italian grip. But, my point was, if it DOES feel more comfortable for someone to use the Italian grip in their fencing than a pistol grip, than that alone would give them an advantage. Again, I can't see tooooo many people finding it as comfy as a pistol grip, but to each his own.

EDIT: I would also add that dissing/praising the grip without having used one is also BS (not saying this is so in your case, but I do know people who do instinctively jump to it without ever having even held the damned thing)

However, just for the record, my personal opinion on the grip is that while kinda fun to fence with, and neat from a historical standpoint, I can't really see it being found comfortable for too many people in competitive fencing.... but to each his own...