Italian grip thoughts

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by Hauptman

All these heated words... my oh my....

I made a useful, even-handed, reply to the original poster, as opposed to the many extreme and skewed posts I've seen.

And if I called someone on their obviously "well-thought out" label of point-less abomination, well then I must just be a worthless human being.

Just because your post takes a weak position makes it neither even-handed nor helpful.

I could sum up your post in three words: grips are different. That's nothing new and helps no one.

Stating the Italian grip is an anachronism and a handicap for competitive fencing is biased, but also useful data.

Note I'm not saying the mini campfire battle that broke out was necessary or justified either.

[Hauptman]

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

Just because your post takes a weak position makes it neither even-handed nor helpful.

I could sum up your post in three words: grips are different. That's nothing new and helps no one.

Stating the Italian grip is an anachronism and a handicap for competitive fencing is biased, but also useful data.

Note I'm not saying the mini campfire battle that broke out was necessary or justified either.

No top ranked foil fencers use the french grip either, but I never see it described with the kind of vitriolic hostility that is directed towards the italian grip. I have no problem with useful data, just the blind hostility that seems to go with it. It's like arguing that a russian grip is superior to a spanish grip. A waste of time. A good fencer will fence well with any grip, pick the one you like.

And stating that my post was not even-handed or helpful is an opinion. But you're very helpful at adding some wood to the campfire.

[needle]

Originally Posted by Hauptman

It's like arguing that a russian grip is superior to a spanish grip. A waste of time.

Hey, now. Count to 10 and step away from the keyboard, you're getting into really dangerous waters now

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by SJCFU#2

And I shall respond.

I wasn't so much bothered by RF's initial posts - to me it appeared to be a quick, off-the-hip response. Given that other people had provided responses that addressed the OP's question in clearer terms, I probably would have ignored it entirely if not for the "in-your-face" attitude of his second posting. Perhaps if RF had recognized that his wit might not have carried through to the reader, and simply restated his position in a more straight-forward manner (the Italian grips in pretty much unheard of in higher levels because orthopedic grips are considered superior) we might have been spared this discussion.


Personally I don't consider orthopedic grips an abomination - I consider them the superior product of an evolutionary process. However while orthopedic grips have been around for the better part of a century, the Italian grip still predates it by a considerable amount. Therefore I can understand why some classical fencers, filled with disdain for what they see as any modern aberration, might consider orthopedic grips an abomination. And given that it is difficult to classify something an "abomination" without first comparing it to an existing standard (in this case the traditional French and Italian grips), they might even be justified in their opinion - at least in their own minds. Personally I don't care what they think so long as they don't try to force their opinion onto the rest of us.


I never said that the French grip was obsolete. What I said was that the orthopedic grip had prospered at the expense of both the French and Italian grips. The French grip has certainly held its own in certain areas, but its popularity has declined in others (based on various discussion I would estimate that roughly half the high-level épéeist choose French grips over orthopedic grips, but fewer than 10% of high-level foilist). The Italian grip has simply fared worse - given the difficulty finding a blade with a false ricasso it appears that the traditional Italian grip may be teetering on the brink of extinction.

haha, wow. My First response was considered less offensive than my second response? Listen, I have nothing against people who use the Italian grip... it is their decision and it doesn't affect me at all (like gay marriage). But if someone who I assume wants to be a competitive fencer asks about it then I will straight up tell them that it is outdated and completely worthless because of the fact that anything done with it can be done at worst equally with a pistol grip, which is also cheaper and easier to find might I add. If you think that I'm all pissed off or whatnot, I'm not. I find it cute that people still try to defend a position that it is still relevent in competitive fencing. It isn't. All you need to do to win this argument is point out an international... hell, even a person on our senior points list who fences with one and I will concede. And I will win this argument, do you know why? The top 61 or so on the list agree with me.

Originally Posted by Hauptman

No top ranked foil fencers use the french grip either, but I never see it described with the kind of vitriolic hostility that is directed towards the italian grip. I have no problem with useful data, just the blind hostility that seems to go with it. It's like arguing that a russian grip is superior to a spanish grip. A waste of time. A good fencer will fence well with any grip, pick the one you like.

And stating that my post was not even-handed or helpful is an opinion. But you're very helpful at adding some wood to the campfire.

Again, no blind hostility. You're right, no top ranked foil fencers use the french grip because it is a bad idea in that capacity. I would advise any aspiring competitive foil fencer to phase out of french grip once his/her coach was satisfied that they could use their fingers properly, etc. My argument about the Italian is that it's completely worthless except from the historical standpoint, the French is still very useful... just not in foil (to my knowledge). I will even go a step further and point out that Bob Marx (incredible Epee' fencer, multi-time Olympian) fences classical french epee without posting. He's the only one I've seen do this, but it shows that it is possible to have great success doing it.

I don't see any hostility in my posts, just refuting your points and backing my own up. Notice there were no personal attacks or anything, I just wasn't holding your hand through it. Come back when you can make a good argument, it'll be more fun.

[piste off]

Originally Posted by SJCFU#2

The French grip has certainly held its own in certain areas, but its popularity has declined in others (based on various discussion I would estimate that roughly half the high-level épéeist choose French grips over orthopedic grips, but fewer than 10% of high-level foilist).

Your figures are probably inaccurate. I would put high-level foilists at basically 0%.

For epee, I don't think 50% (half) is accurate. I can tell you in most of the finals (top 8) that I have seen this year, especially at the higher levels, only 1 or sometimes 2 fencers used a french grip. Also, the vast majority of those (I'd say over 90%) posted/pommeled almost exclusively - which is hardly classical.

The french grip in epee, with very few exceptions, has "held its own" due to the relatively new (1980s or so... Riboud/Boisse and "the Italians" initiated?) technique of gripping at the end to gain a reach advantage.

Rick

[wahrman]

I practiced a few nights with an Italian grip foil. I thought about trying it in a competition but I just didn't have the guts. I figured that if I'm going to bother showing up and paying my $25 I want to do as well as I can.

It was interesting to use in practice however. I found myself doing a lot more parry/direct repost than usual. Mostly because anything else was harder to do than with my usual visconti. But other's millage may vary.

[Durando]

Originally Posted by Carlos37

Do you think the FIE are ever gonna allow italian grip on foil or epee?Have you ever tried an italian grip?I wonder if they sell it...

Thinking about an Italian grip is a koan I use to clear my mind before competition. You know, kind of like "Think of one hand slapping the face you had before your parents were born."

[Hauptman]

"I don't see any hostility in my posts, just refuting your points and backing my own up. Notice there were no personal attacks or anything, I just wasn't holding your hand through it. Come back when you can make a good argument, it'll be more fun."

Ahh.... the arrogance of youth; to be hostile while denying hostility. I make no arguments. I know when I'm wasting my time.

"Wisdom is the knowledge of that which we don't know."

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by piste off

Your figures are probably inaccurate. I would put high-level foilists at basically 0%.

For epee, I don't think 50% (half) is accurate. I can tell you in most of the finals (top 8) that I have seen this year, especially at the higher levels, only 1 or sometimes 2 fencers used a french grip. Also, the vast majority of those (I'd say over 90%) posted/pommeled almost exclusively - which is hardly classical.

The french grip in epee, with very few exceptions, has "held its own" due to the relatively new (1980s or so... Riboud/Boisse and "the Italians" initiated?) technique of gripping at the end to gain a reach advantage.

Rick

I think Michel Dessurault from Canada was one of the first as well.

[Hauptman]

Originally Posted by wahrman

I practiced a few nights with an Italian grip foil. I thought about trying it in a competition but I just didn't have the guts. I figured that if I'm going to bother showing up and paying my $25 I want to do as well as I can.

It was interesting to use in practice however. I found myself doing a lot more parry/direct repost than usual. Mostly because anything else was harder to do than with my usual visconti. But other's millage may vary.

The italian is very good for actions on the blade. It takes awhile to get used to though (I hated it at first), and you definitely want a wrist strap. I had fun using an italian foil and found it very effective; never liked it on an epee though. Russian grip is my standard ... fits my hand nicely.

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by Hauptman

"I don't see any hostility in my posts, just refuting your points and backing my own up. Notice there were no personal attacks or anything, I just wasn't holding your hand through it. Come back when you can make a good argument, it'll be more fun."

Ahh.... the arrogance of youth; to be hostile while denying hostility. I make no arguments. I know when I'm wasting my time.

"Wisdom is the knowledge of that which we don't know."

It's always good to bring age into an argument when one no longer has any relevent points to make. I'd be upset if I'd spent 25 years fencing with no notable results as well.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

The french grip is deader than dead in foil.

And now its fashionable in epee.

[hobo386]

Out of curiosity, what are the actual disadvantages of an Italian foil that are so enormous? From what I can tell, they seem to share both advantages and disadvantages of French and Pistol grips, but what arguments are there against them other than "Italian grips suck!" and "Noone uses them anymore, so they must suck!"?

[piste off]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

The french grip is deader than dead in foil.

And now its fashionable in epee.

Can you clarify what you mean by fashionable? I've noticed somewhat of a downtrend myself (look at how many are using them on the French and Italian teams compared to the past)... is that what you meant?

Rick

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by piste off

Can you clarify what you mean by fashionable? I've noticed somewhat of a downtrend myself (look at how many are using them on the French and Italian teams compared to the past)... is that what you meant?

Rick

He means that there are a lot of mediocre kids in america who see people posting and think "wow, cool, I'm going to do that!" without realizing that perhaps they should not, or that they don't know how to do so in the first place.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

It's always good to bring age into an argument when one no longer has any relevent points to make. I'd be upset if I'd spent 25 years fencing with no notable results as well.

http://despair.com/stup24x30pri.html

While I don't necessarily agree with the statement, it seems a witty comment to make right now.

[piste off]

Originally Posted by hobo386

Out of curiosity, what are the actual disadvantages of an Italian foil that are so enormous? From what I can tell, they seem to share both advantages and disadvantages of French and Pistol grips, but what arguments are there against them other than "Italian grips suck!" and "Noone uses them anymore, so they must suck!"?

Very good question.

Everyone will have their opinion. Mine is that the french grip gives you a reach advantage (when posted/pommeled, which again isn't "classical" and I assume would be a no-no with an Italian) and is better at certain angulations. For me this would be better than the Italian as it is less "restricted." Some would argue that your point control is better, but I don't believe that.

The pistol grip (for me) gives better strength (which also translates into speed) and control (both on the blade actions and point accuracy). To me, it also gives a more natural feel for blade actions (apart from the strength) because of the position of the hand relative to the blade.

That is just me...

Rick

[RITFencing]

Quick note about the french grip that I think many posters don't realize: It can be used like a normal french grip, too. That means that you can use the same weapon for either strong blade actions or extra reach/angulation. Why give up one or the other when the versatility of the grip is one of its #1 features?