BF Epee blades

[Miguelito]

I have several BF epee blades. The oldest I've been using for 10 months the others are a bit newer. My concern is that the end of the foible (about the last 8 inches of the blades) seems to have gone to mush and require hand straightening after a lot of touches, even hits that aren't very hard. Has anyone else experienced this? I love the light weight and stiffness of the BF blade, but having to correct the bend in my blade after almost every touch is getting tiresome. I recently got a frown from a director as I stepped off the piste yet again and slapped the blade under-foot to correct the backward bend near the tip.
Is this common? Alternatively, is there another brand out there of similar weight & rigidity that I might check out?

Thanks for any feedback,
Miguel

[DJ Apostrophe]

I am having the same problem... i ordered two of them from triplette (the super blue version) back in july... and the one blade i use as my 'primary' weapon has started to do that... it is quite frustrating... so i share your thoughts / concerns on this matter... i have been lucky enough not to get the frown quite yet though...

[damianip]

I have one: an non-FIE Gold version. I love the handling but it is a bit "wrinkled" at the foible after about 5 months of moderate use.

I'm not quite sure of what to buy in the future. Right now I have a stock of F-L blades from Triplette which aren't bad and were dirt cheap (although they aren't as nicely balanced as the BF). Between my son and I we've only broken one so far (happened two days after I built it, on the first straightening).

Since I have 8 or 9 left, it might be a while before I am looking for blades again. However, I'm inclined to look at the LP sheet metal blades. The folks I've asked love them and they seem to hold up pretty well. They cost a bit more than the BF blades from Triplette.

Paolo

[oiuyt]

The epees I use are the BF blades from Triplette which I switched to specifically to cure the problem you're complaining about. I had several other blades from various manufacturers, all of which had gotten to the point where any reasonably solid hit put all kinds of bends into them. I borrowed a BF from my GF, discovered that I REALLY liked how it felt and switched my top 2 weapons over. Haven't had any problems with them since, I like the way they handle, and in my experience, you can put a curve in them and they stay that way.... hardly any need for straightening at all, much less a mushy blade. Granted I don't practice much epee any more, they still get a fair amount of competitive workout and I haven't had problems.
These are easily the best blades I've found. When I get around to it I plan to rebuild my other epees, either with the same blades or possibly with the FIE version.

-B

[Gav]

I have the same problem with BF blades. After a few months you get a distinctve kink in the foible. Having said this it doesn't always happen. It seems to depend on how you treat the blade early in its life. I have a BF upon which a flecheur impaled himself (on itsa 1st use), its had that disctinctive kink since. I have another BF that didn't get abused for couple of months and now it has taken a nice [legal] bend throughout.

SO the best idea is treat the blade as kindly as possible at 1st till it settles down and you shouldn't have these problems.

[Brian Parker]

I have been fencing with FIE "BF" Epee blades (white) for the past year. In that time I have broken 6 of these blades. I love the point control/balance that the "BF" blades provide, but I can't afford purchasing a new blade every two months. All I want is an Epee blade to last me for an average of 4 to 6 months! So, I have ordered 3 FIE Epee blades from different manufactorers in hopes to find a blade that will last longer.

Below is some observation about blades that I have noted over the years from fencing and working on weapons. Maybe these observations may provide some information to those trying to understand blade differences.
Also, there is some questions that I have that maybe as a collective we can provide the answers to.

From my experience with epee and foil blades, a blade will become soft (degree of softness will vary depending on the composition of the blade) at the foreible (end section of the blade) and require more frequent straighting as the blade aproaches it's end of life. Of course length of life (durability) depends on a lot of factors, which I will try to cover in the following notes.

I have noticed that blades vary by weight, balance, flexibility, speed, point control, durability, and composition.

A blade's weight and balance help determine blade feel (flexibility, speed, and point control) and durability.

Blade composition has an impact on blade feel features and durability as well. The non-FIE (carbon steel) and FIE blades (maraging steel mostly) vary in composition differences. The FIE blades are stiffer/less flexible (made of stronger steel) on average than non-FIE blades. Also, FIE blades are highly resistent to rusting (due to a high Nickle content), where as non-FIE blades (carbon steel) rust very easily. There also a good amount of difference between the FIE blade compositions, since the FIE allows a significate percentage amount of variance for important element components that meet their tolerances.

For blades that are handmade, every blade is unique. This is another reason for differences in duration and flexibility. I understand Blaise Freres blades are massproduced with automated production, which produce consistent blades per batch. Though BF blades do vary in weight, balance, flexibility, durability, and maybe composition depending on the batch (marked by the month/year).

I am not familar with the various FIE Epee blades available (except for the "BF" and Viniti FIE blades), but from my experience with various carbon epee blades I have noticed that the "BF" carbon blades (foil blades included) last me shorter than all of the other carbon blades that I have used. The reason I mention this is that the "BF" blades tend to be stiffer (stronger) than the other blades that I have used. In other words, it seems from my experience that the more flexiable blades tend to have a less of a chance of taking a set and end up lasting me longer than the stiffer blades such as the "BF" blades. Is there anything to this theory?

Also, what is the difference between the white, gold, and blue "BF" Maraging FIE Epee blades? Does it have anything to do with marking different maraging steel grades, for example a 250 vs. a 300 grade maraging steel? What is the grade of various maraging steel Epee blades? From what I have been told, a 300 grade maraging steel has a higher strength than a 250 grade, but is more susceptible to breakage.

I have been told by a fencing equipment distribitor URL=http://www.fechtsport-langenkamp.de]FechtSport Langenkamp[/url]that the "BF" blue and the "SM" (don't know what this stands for) coloured have a different color because of a surface refinement. But, I am not sure what this actually means.

I have heard that the color of blades (like the blue) is gun blueing to prevent rusting, but it does not make much sense to put rust preventative material on FIE maraging blades.

FechtSport-Langenkamp told me that the composition of maraging steel blades are "secrets of the manufacturers and it is not possible to get any information about this."

If you know of some additional reasons for blade differences, then please include them.

[Gav]

Maragin refers to the grade of steel. There is nothing "secret" about its manufacture - as I understand it. Someone (Neevel I think) posted a description of the composition of maraging steel a while back and listed its properties. I don't remember what the post was concerning so unfortunately I can't find it. Blaise Ferrers (how do you spell it?) have a static web page with pictures of their manufacturing process, alas its not very informative (and I can't find the damn thing). Anyway I suspect the guy you were talking to didn't really know and was giving a best guess.

I agree with your observations re the life cycle of epee blades. As they get older they lose their integrity and differing blades of differing manufacturers take on particular characteristics. Leon Paul blades for example become "flick masters" ie REALLY floppy. This is some thing I dislike about LP blades as its counterproductive to my epee style.

As to what the difference the "colour" of the blade is - beats me. I can't really tell. They're certainly prettier. People I know who use them have mentione that they don't seem to last any longer. The rumopur around here is that it's the dye shows up imperfections. My gues is that it enables vendors to tag an extra £10 onto the price of a blade (or mayb I'm being too cynical).

[neevel]

I don't recall if it was me or Paolo that posted the data on maraging steels, but it's out there on the web if you do a search through Google or the like (modify it to exclude references to golf-- maraging steels are widely used in golf clubs so you'll get a lot of hits referencing that). If you check back through the archives here it's probably still there. As a general type they've been in existence for a while, so aside from some specific manufacturing techniques I doubt there's too many trade-secrets about them.

The difference between the white, blue, and gold BF blades is in the degree of stiffness (white are the stiffest), which can be affected by heat treat and by differences in the cross-section of the blades. The coloring is just a finish which serves to easily distinguish the blades from one another.

The best way to minimize the chances of a kink is to carefully pretrain a curve into the blade when it's new, before using it. Nonetheless, eventually fatigue from normal use or a really hard hit will take its toll. I've seen all kinds of blades (FL, Leon Paul, Priuer, Lammet, Vniti) do this. Leon Paul foil blades take kinks readily when they get old.

I have a BF Blue maraging foil blade that took a big-time (about 40-degree) kink in the foible when an opponent tried to close distance on me to avoid an attack. Initially I wasn't able to fully put it right and swapped it out for a new blade, but a while later I spent about 20 minutes diligently working on it with the big loop-wrench I use for bending tangs and blades and was able to get it fully straigtened out and back to the kind of smooth curve I like. I rebuilt a weapon with it and have been using it for the last 3 months without the kink returning. I don't think I would've been able to restore a non-maraging blade to the same degree, though.

-Dave

[Brian Parker]

Neevel, thanks I will look on the web for the maraging steel information!

Neevel wrote:
"The difference between the white, blue, and gold BF blades is in the degree of stiffness (white are the stiffest), which can be affected by heat treat and by differences in the cross-section of the blades. The coloring is just a finish which serves to easily distinguish the blades from one another."

This makes a lot of sense! From what I understand, heat treatment effects the grain structure (cross-section of the blade) of the metal. A real fine grain structure size is usually harder and more brittle than a larger grain size. All of this has to do with strength. A real high strength can have a short flex life.

So, it appears that blades with the same composition (meeting FIE specs) can under go different heat treatments, which will impact blade characteristics of flexibility and durability greatly.


Gav and Neevel, it is not that the composition of maraging steel is a "secret" (the specs for maraging steel is easily found), but that each blade manufacturer can and probably do vary the compositions. I checked (on the USFA web site) the tolerances for a blade to meet FIE requirements and found that the percentage of critical elements, like Titaninium, can vary sigificately to impact the strength characteristics. For example a blade could have anywhere from 0.5% to 2.0% Ti.

I read an engineering material's study on a 300 grade (300,000 psi ultimate strength) maraging steel containing 18.5% Ni, 9.3% Co, 5.1% Mo, which indicated that Titanium (Ti) content of greater than 1% caused a very severe penalty in notch toughness (has to do with fexibility and durability). Because of the variation in blade composition (Ni, Co, Mo, and Ti) allowed to meet FIE standards, then it is understandable that the life of our blades could vary so greatly!

It would help if the exact chemical composition of the various blades were available (known to armorers/fencers), but the blade manufacturers keep this a "secret!"

[damianip]

Originally posted by Brian Parker:
<STRONG>
It would help if the exact chemical composition of the various blades were available (known to armorers/fencers), but the blade manufacturers keep this a "secret!"</STRONG>

I'd suspect that the manufacturers don't have any "secret" alloys recipes even within the bounds of the specification.

The reason: they don't make their own alloys, they buy them from someone else. I'm sure that they are happy to merely get ones in spec.

The cost of having an alloy custom made would be astronomic given the relatively small demand for fencing blades. As an example, Prieur gets their alloys bars for forging from Aubert et Duval which makes specialty alloys for aerospace and other industries.

The handling and durability of the blade is more closely coupled to the blade geometry, method of manufacture and ultimately the subsequent heat treatment (the hardest thing to do properly: Remember, when in doubt, blame the heat treater).

Paolo

[neevel]

Paolo's the one here who's got real working experience with metallurgy (I do have a club member who's a metallurgical engineer I can refer to). Given the size of all of the blade making companies (not large), it's almost certain that they're using industry standard grades of maraging steels purchased as bar- or rod- stock rather than having their own special formulae made. What they will have control over is the heat treat process, and you're correct that heat treat will have a major impact on the characteristics of the final blade.


-Dave

[Brian Parker]

Paolo, thanks for seting me straight that blade manufacturers don't make their own alloys. Of course that means that the alloys blade manufacturers are using may not be ideal for use as fencing blades. But, as you say it would be too costly for the blade manufacturers to make specially designed fencing blade alloys.

Neevel, thanks again for the information you provided to my questions!

So, it sounds that there is no consistent variable involved in the making of blades, which a fencer or an armorer can use to determine the features of a blade. All of our knowlodge pertaining to reasons for blade differences are not really useful, are they?

The only real way to decide if you like a blade is to fence with it! Then purchase as many of the same make blade as you can affort and hope that all of these blades are the same!

Maybe I am asking for too much, but it would be nice if the fencing blade industry, as small as it is, could be a little more consistent. I guess the most consistent blades in the world are the "BF" blades due to their automated forges, at least those blades from the same batch (month/year) and color.

[damianip]

Although I don't have any, from what I've seen of LP "folded" blades and what I know of the manufacturing process, I would suspect that these blades should be as or more consistent that the traditionally forged products.

The use of sheet rather than bar tends to make the base material more homogenous. Add the fact that traditional forging processes are more difficult to maintain for dimensional tolerance than current sheet working processes and you have an inherent advantage with the LP method.

Whether or not they capitalize on this is another story. Traditional methods with great attention can match the newer process but it is more demanding of the forge.

Paolo

[E-fencer]

Referencing earlier points about the colored BF blades, I was told that the Blue BF (and perhaps the Gold) were heavier blades, making me wonder if there is a trade-off with flexibility and weight.

My own cursory inspection gave me the impression that the Blue BF's were thicker in the foible part (foil blades) and it also felt heavier...

For those of you that use them, have you noticed a difference in weight?

[Miguelito]

I have several white and one superblue BF blades (all non maraging)and I haven't noticed any weight difference in them.

Miguel

[Gav]

I've a friend who uses BF blades almost exclusively now. He doesn't really notice that much of a difference in quality (he only buys them to keep his kit homogenous - all Allstar) when you compare blades made before the colouring process started and now. I'm not sold on the quality issue. Having said that he bought a new gold blade and it was very pretty so there is a definite cosmetic difference.

[Haze]

On a vaguely related note, I found this mildly amusing when I ran a search on maraging steel (you may not):
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/radsafe/9401/msg00033.html

[Gav]

Al last! The FIE's true purpose becomes clear!!