An interesting foil blade...

[Purple Fencer]

Found this one in a HS inventory while doing some maintenance. (Will take pics when I get home)

FIE foil blade...BG...1989 (except I don;t see a BG 89 blade on teh list)

2 grooves....one down each side of the blade...although only 1 groove actually reaches up to the tip.

I know this blade would be illegal now (since the rules specify the groove must be uppermost)...and i think I'd heard stories about these blades...anyone else?

[SJCFU#2]

Sounds a bit like the "laser blade" of the mid-80's. There were supposed to be a series of tiny holes drilled through the blade (with a laser - hence the name) that ran from side to side bottom of one groove to the bottom of the other). IIRC the idea was that when the blade broke it would at one of these holes which was supposed to lead to a square break with a relatively blunt edge (at least that's what the adds claimed - rarely even saw one intact, much less broken).

Of course it could also simply have been someone else's experiment (I seem to recall hearing on other blades were the grooves were on the side. It even makes a degree of sense when you think about how a blade typically bends since it leaves more steel at the top and bottom, where the stresses are likely to be highest.

[Craig]

I forget what the name of the blade was, but a fencer at my club (Murat Y.) won one as a prize for his finish at JOs one year. He was pretty psyched about it.

As I remember, when it broke, it split down the middle.

Craig

[Purple Fencer]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...Laserblade.jpg

You can see the double grooves on teh bottom of teh pic...and now that i think about it, I;m not sure this IS a BG blade....Donald? Craig? Anyone shed some light on this??

[DieterS]

I know this blade would be illegal now (since the rules specify the groove must be uppermost)...

I didn't know this was changed.

The rulebook now says, "The groove in the blade must be uppermost." This is a pity because, tests that we ran some years ago (emulating the Russians) seemed to indicate that blades last 25-30% longer when the groove is facing down (and thus break less frequently).

The rulebook also states, "The foil has a single wire, glued in a groove cut the whole length of the blade, which permanently connects the pointe d’arrêt to the corresponding socket inside the guard." This is also a pity, because we also experimented with "glueless" wiring: slipping the wire through tubing that could simply be press fit into the groove. It worked great! No nasty glue or fumes, but the groove had to be facing up.

Oh well.

Dieter
Eigertek

[KD5MDK]

I have heard here that the "groove uppermost" rule was to block an American foil design in the 1950s that was tubular, and had the foil running down the center chamber of the blade, from competing with European forges. However, that could just be cultural paranoia. Given the 1960-1964 administration of the FIE was all American, I doubt anti-US sentiment in the fencing world was anywhere near that strong then.

I failed a weapon at one of my first refereeing experiences for having the groove on the bottom. It was the rule application of the weekend I was most uncertain of, and I was prepared to write an apology to the fencer if I had been wrong, but was quite relieved when I went back to check the rulebook and determined I had been right.

[robert]

This is another somewhat vague rule as the actual rule only is that the groove must be uppermost, it does not state it can not be on both sides. Hence if the blade is double grooved it needs to be wired on the top side. By omission in mentioning a bottom groove it does preclude a bottom only grooved blade. A double grooved blade technically may not be illegal, but it would have to be top wired, I’d challenge a president on that one if they called a card. Any thoughts.

Bottom wired is nice, and not allowing is too bad as I have an old bottom wired Vostoc foil blade that will be 20 years old next year and still is in fine working shape, albeit a couple barrels and many tips, wires and screws removed from the original. I only use it infrequently now as it is not "legal".

[erooMynohtnA]

This is another somewhat vague rule as the actual rule only is that the groove must be uppermost, it does not state it can not be on both sides. Hence if the blade is double grooved it needs to be wired on the top side. By omission in mentioning a bottom groove it does preclude a bottom only grooved blade. A double grooved blade technically may not be illegal, but it would have to be top wired, I’d challenge a president on that one if they called a card. Any thoughts.

Bottom wired is nice, and not allowing is too bad as I have an old bottom wired Vostoc foil blade that will be 20 years old next year and still is in fine working shape, albeit a couple barrels and many tips, wires and screws removed from the original. I only use it infrequently now as it is not "legal".

So why can't you just turn a "bottom-wired" blade "upside-down" and have a perfectly normal blade?

If it's canted, you'd certainly have to recant it, an inadvisable procedure. But, if it's just an unmounted, uncanted blade, what's to distinguish it from a totally normal and modern blade?

[KD5MDK]

Most people don't like upwards curves in blades, which is amost certain for a blade that was down wired and then turned over.

The advantage everyone is talking about for the bottom grooved blades is that the wire is compressed, not stretched, when the blade bends. To get the same effect with a top wire you have to have it curve upwards.

[DieterS]

Most people don't like upwards curves in blades, which is amost certain for a blade that was down wired and then turned over.

The advantage everyone is talking about for the bottom grooved blades is that the wire is compressed, not stretched, when the blade bends. To get the same effect with a top wire you have to have it curve upwards.

We always started with new, uncurved blades. I attribute the longevity of bottom wired blades to having more metal in the top half of the blade where more of the stretching occurs.

Dieter

[Purple Fencer]

When in doubt, go to the source!

This from Dan DeChaine (who I will send the blade to for Armorers College)

"In 1988 and 1989, Jean Andre Begon, the blade maker for Soudet, made two types of blades in response to a request from the FIE that blades have grooves on the sides, not on the top, in order to avoid popping wires. All of the manufacturers were asked to produce them, but only Begon did. He made two types, one with just the grooves on the sides and one with tiny laser-cut holes from side to side. The ones with these little holes are called the "laser" blades, and the others without the holes are just his normal (superb) quality blades. The letters "BG" refer to his last name, Begon."

So that explains the BG in the shield NOT being Blue Gauntlet....and it also explains why it's not on the FIE blade list the oldest blade listed being from 1995)...because the groove are not on top as per the current rules, the blade's not legal, so why put it on there?

[SJCFU#2]

Did the FIE even maintaining a list of approved blades prior to 1995 or did they simply trust the manufacturers?

Also, the requirement for the foil blades to have the groove on the uppermost side didn't appear in the USFA rulebook until the 98 version. The 95 version only called for the the groove to be for the groove to be on top for épée and in line with the thumb when mounting an orthopedic grip. Unfortunately I don't have an old copy of the FIE rules to check against, but based on this it seems likely that these blades were perfectly legal at the time they were made (the operative term being "were" - now they're little more than a curiosity, sort of like a saber guard with a BNC socket).

[Purple Fencer]

Did the FIE even maintaining a list of approved blades prior to 1995 or did they simply trust the manufacturers?

Also, the requirement for the foil blades to have the groove on the uppermost side didn't appear in the USFA rulebook until the 98 version. The 95 version only called for the the groove to be for the groove to be on top for épée and in line with the thumb when mounting an orthopedic grip. Unfortunately I don't have an old copy of the FIE rules to check against, but based on this it seems likely that these blades were perfectly legal at the time they were made (the operative term being "were" - now they're little more than a curiosity, sort of like a saber guard with a BNC socket).

Likely you're correct.....where's Donald??

[oiuyt]

now they're little more than a curiosity, sort of like a saber guard with a BNC socket.

Sabre guards with BNC sockets can still be used (legally) in competition...

-B

[Joe biebel]

I bought four of the "laser" blades before the 1989 world foil championships. If I recall correctly, (that's a big if) they had 3 grooves. The blade was built like an I-beam with a groove on the top for the wire. The perforations went side to side though the "I". The blades were amazingly light, but in my opinion very flawed. I broke two in the month before the "worlds" and 2 at the worlds. They never broke like they were supposed to, that is, only one side of the "beam" breaking at a time making for a safer blade break. While fencing the team from West Germany, my last blade broke while infighting in the most scary fashion imaginable. When we were done with the team event, I took the "scary" broken blade to the armory. The technicians were facinated witht the break. I have never seen one again since. Pity about the failure. You really had to wield one to believe the lightness.