Leon Paul Reaction Epee

**damianip** · 07-30-2002 07:11 PM

Anybody have any opinions or experiences with this new épée? I'm skeptical enough to not want to run out and get one just because it's cool and high tech. The thing is a bit picey.

I've been developing a sore elbow of late and I'm wondering if the weight of my weapon might be a cause.

I've actually improved my en garde position in sixte which tended to drift toward center. I think this is part of the cause the sore elbow. Since that can't change, I'm going to have to look at changing the cant and balance of my current weapons or the weight.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Paolo

**Gav** · 07-31-2002 01:24 AM

That's the *tennis bat* handle isn't it?

I've seen it used to varying effect. A friend of mine bought one to try it out but went back to his ortho cos it was "too clunky". The winner of this years British Championships was using one - but then again he is an excellent fencer. For my own opinion, I didn't like it. I felt that it was too broad to fit my hand succesfully. I also felt it didn't give much feedback or point control. Then again the winner of the british championships was extremely succesful with it.

The big advantage I can see to it, is that if you use a french grip and all of your weapons break then [if you have one] you can stick it onto a mates ortho weapon. Hey presto - instant frenchie.

**mfp** · 07-31-2002 02:38 AM

I have one -- I have yet to decide if I like it or not.

The LP "reaction" epee weighs in about 7 ounces less than my non-LP non-lightweight French grip epees. The lighter weight is certainly noticable, but so is the LP's very forward center of gravity. The LP's c.g. is around 5 inches forward of the guard compared to around 1 inch forward of the guard for my other epees.

The first few times I took a lesson with the LP, I found my arm was *more* tired than when using the other epees, but that seemed to be due to using somewhat different muscles and getting used to its balance.

One annoying thing about the grip is that you quickly find out why LP lists a "Long spanner with tommy bar" for sale on their site ... in order to tighten the nut you need a slim but deep socket with at least a 6 inch extension bar in order to fit down the hollow "tennis racquet" handle.

[ 07-31-2002, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: mfp ]

**damianip** · 07-31-2002 04:30 AM

For what it's worth, I already use a French grip (SchermaSport with the large pommel) and LP blades. While posting, I certainly already feel the tip heaviness of the blade. However, holding the weapon normally conveys a nice balance.

I guess I have to see for myself if the decreased weight helps more than the even greeater tip heaviness.

Thanks for the input.

Paolo

**veeco** · 07-31-2002 11:35 AM

I have to concur with mfp on the "tightening the nut" problem.

One dude at our salle bought one of them and when he received it, it was not tightened enough. I could not find one tool long enough to tighten it in the whole armory.

Then when I held it and did some moves with it it felt really clumsy, partly because of the thickness of the handle and partly because of the fact that it was very tip heavy as mentionned above. I found that my point control was completely off.

I currently use the schermasport french grips, so it's also quite of a change between the leon paul and the schermasport. Maybe with time one can adapt to it and become better at point control.

But what I really did not like is the thickness of the grip. I feel like I could not use my fingers to control the point.

What I think is that the fencers who use this grip don't fence a typical "french grip" style of fencing where one relies on cheap touches to the advanced target and derobements. Rather than that people would use a blade contact heavy style where parry-riposte and oppositions are more being relied upon. Touches would then be more scored on the body than the advanced target.

But that's my theory. I have not fenced enough with the leon paul nor have I seen good people fence with this grip, so I could be wrong.

Gav, does Simon Laight fence with this grip? He's about the only high level British fencer I have fenced so far.

**D'Artagnan1673** · 07-31-2002 12:05 PM

This is perhaps the 2nd time I've heard of the Schermasport French grips. By briefly looking at them at <a href="http://www.amfence.com/html/epee_parts.html" target="_blank">American Fencing</a> It appears that they are used with a pistol grip cut to the blade, although I could be mistaken. Those are the Negrinni grips that are supposed to be worth their weight in gold, right?

My style is a little of everything. I use contra de sixte to take the blade and usually go into the body. I like to pick off shots under the guard. I love to counterattack into a poorly made attack and I'm fond of the fleche. I use an Uhlmann Ultra FIE w/ Ultralight guard and find its balance and precision to be excellent. I'll never fence with a standard epee again!

One thing that I've never tried is to post. I can see its occasional use, but not as a main style of play. What do you other epeeists say to that?

**damianip** · 07-31-2002 12:26 PM

Veeco,

Very interesting.

I think I'll try slight modifications to my cant then.

I think the last thing I need right now is a radical change in point control technique.

I thought that the grip itself was excessively thick. I had built up my old grips previously whilst transitioning back from pistol grips. A

fter a short while, I had enough finger strength back to handle a normal French. I don't think I'd like a grip that big.

Paolo

**MHS Fencer** · 07-31-2002 03:34 PM

Simon uses a pistol grip, I believe a visconti of sorts - definitely not a french grip or one of those leon paul ones.

**veeco** · 07-31-2002 05:08 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
This is perhaps the 2nd time I've heard of the Schermasport French grips. By briefly looking at them at <a href="http://www.amfence.com/html/epee_parts.html" target="_blank">American Fencing</a> It appears that they are used with a pistol grip cut to the blade, although I could be mistaken. Those are the Negrinni grips that are supposed to be worth their weight in gold, right?
<hr /></blockquote>They are not used with a pistol grip cut on the tang. You need a long tang to use those grips. AFAIK, the Leon Paul is the only "French grip" that you can use on a short-tanged blade.
They are pretty pricey. I think you have to count like 30 bucks for just the pommel, plus add to that the price of the handle itself.
What makes the pommels so expensive, I believe, is that they are made by some italian artist who doesn't have anything to do with fencing but did some for schermasport at some point and they liked it so much that they asked him to do more. But the guy would rather spend more time on his art than on the grips, I guess, so supply is limited and demand is high -> high prices!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
One thing that I've never tried is to post. I can see its occasional use, but not as a main style of play. What do you other epeeists say to that?<hr /></blockquote>I post maybe 90% of the time during a bout. The rest of the time when I don't post is either to rest my arm and fingers, so I'm out of distance, or when I try to be really powerful in my takes on the offense. Everything else I do with the pommel resting in my palm, holding the blade pretty much as far as possible down the handle as I can. And I can parry-riposte, disengage, oppose etc without problem. I very rarely loose my weapon in combat, even in tournaments.
It does take practise.
I used to fence pistol and I switched over the summer (about 7-8 years ago). I practised everyday with a french grip, posting it, keeping getting frustrated after every touch, every bout, every day.
After that summer I never used a pistol grip again, save that occasional time when I broke my last blade in a tournament and the only lefty that would lend me a blade was using pistol.

**achilleus** · 07-31-2002 05:32 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
One thing that I've never tried is to post. I can see its occasional use, but not as a main style of play. What do you other epeeists say to that?<hr /></blockquote>I'm pretty sure we recently covered this. The concensus being, if you don't post, you missing out on the greatest benefit a french grip can offer to an epee fencer.

**D'Artagnan1673** · 07-31-2002 09:01 PM

I know that we did, I was just trying to get additional input on this subject.

**Gav** · 08-01-2002 03:08 AM

What the hell is 'posting'? Is it pommeling - i'm just confused after reading some of the posts.

Veeco: Someone else has already answere about Simon but I thought I'd let you know who was using the LP grip. His name is Quentin Berryman. He is an excllent fencer (2* British Champion if I remember) but has been out things for a while as we abroad (as far as I know) in France. He seemed to be using the grip as a French grip (ie pommeling and derobing) but I don't remember much more than that. I agree with your assessment of it. I too found it too clunky, it was far to wide for my hand. *I really disliked the feedback I got from it.*

**veeco** · 08-01-2002 12:46 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
I know that we did, I was just trying to get additional input on this subject.<hr /></blockquote>Additional input is pretty much going to be the same: posting a french grip = good.

Not posting a french grip = masochism <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

**veeco** · 08-01-2002 12:48 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gav:
What the hell is 'posting'? Is it pommeling - i'm just confused after reading some of the posts.

<hr /></blockquote>Yep. Posting would be the American language equivalent of pommeling.

Hmmm, I feel like a mediator trying to help Brits and Yanks communicate effectively together. Being French myself makes it quite funny <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

**JEC** · 08-01-2002 05:09 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Hmmm, I feel like a mediator trying to help Brits and Yanks communicate effectively together. Being French myself makes it quite funny <hr /></blockquote>Veeco, I just noticed that you're half devil (666/2=333) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

**suregrip** · 08-02-2002 12:52 PM

You know -

I was given the strangest epee for my birthday. The handle is blue and very thick, just like what you guys are describing. I 'grew up' with a nice, heavy Triplette setup, and I nick-named this blade the "firefly" because when I went to use it, it would 'fly' all over the place because it is so lightweight. I'd rather feel like Conan with a heavier blade.

**mfp** · 08-02-2002 10:20 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by damianip:
 I don't think I'd like a grip that big.
<hr /></blockquote>The LP ultralight grip comes in 2 sizes actually ...

Handle Specifications and associated components:

Ref. 140M (Medium size.)
1. Weight = 40 grams
2. Size = 23.0 mm square
3. Length = 190 mm

Ref. 140L (Large size.)
1. Weight = 53 grams
2. Size = 29.0 mm square
3. Length = 190 mm

**Bebop and Rocksteady** · 08-03-2002 04:20 PM

Leon Paul seems to have a thing for making goofy 'innovations'.

What's the big deal? Be a man and deal with the weight like everyone else.

**mfp** · 08-03-2002 06:47 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bebop and Rocksteady:
Leon Paul seems to have a thing for making goofy 'innovations'.

What's the big deal? Be a man and deal with the weight like everyone else.<hr /></blockquote>That's amusing coming from a 14-year-old with a thing for making goofy statements.

To some the reduced weight might be a big deal because they're not like everyone else. They might be a champion level fencer looking for a possible advantage. Or they may be someone who loves to fence but suffers from wrist or elbow problems.

To others the weight might not be why they take a look at the grip -- they might be attracted by the max length pommelless french grip.

[ 08-03-2002, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: mfp ]

**D'Artagnan1673** · 08-03-2002 11:50 PM

B&R,

You are starting to deviate back into your old style of posting, making very obnoxious comments.

Hey, I love my Uhlmann Ultralight epee. I can "be a man" and use my heavier Triplette weapon, but why? My movement, control and timing are all much improved since my Uhlmann weapon is lighter and therfore quicker.

Run a search on ultralight guards are epees. A lot of people chimed in on why the ultralights have plenty of worthy advantages over their heavier counterparts.

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