New from Eigertek

[DieterS]

Hi all,

Eigertek just announced their new Eclipse scoring machine for 2007 (see www.eigertek.com for details).
Here are the essentials:

- Same exterior, same portability, can still run off a standard 9v battery
- Redesigned circuit board
- New microcontroller, new firmware (Doha 2.0)
- Solves non-registering touches in the FIE T2005 foil timings
- Free firmware upgrades when the FIE timings change
- More static protection
- Louder buzzer, I'd say about 15-20% perceived volume increase
- Price increase in December, but same price for now
- Upgrade offer for existing Eclipse owners
- Still designed, manufactured, and serviced in the USA

I'll be happy to answer any questions here or you can email me.

Best wishes,

Dieter Schlaepfer
President, Eigertek

[Craig]

Originally Posted by DieterS

Armorers,

FYI, I just posted an announcement concerning the Eigertek Eclipse on the Fencing Discussion forum. It's titled New from Eigertek.

Best wishes,
Dieter

And I merged the threads and kept it here since it belongs in the armory.

Craig

[KD5MDK]

When are you going to break into the "affordable score & time" market? Or more accurately, create it.

[DieterS]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

When are you going to break into the "affordable score & time" market? Or more accurately, create it.

We're working on it. We had to scrap out first few designs <cry> because they simply got too expensive. The design that we're working on now is promising.

The idea is to be as clean and simple as possible, but have the ability to make most any scoring machine into a time and score machine--as the FIE has recently mandated. It will take a while.

So let me ask you a question. What should be the minimum height of the score and time numerals?

Thanks,

Dieter
Eigertek

[JEC]

I will say probably 2 x 0.75 cm. You will need 7 characters at minimum (2-1-:-2-2) as the sign of ":" can just be painted. However, there are quite a few Veteran fencers (i.e.: such as a frequent poster in this forum) who use the bottom of old Coke's bottles as glasses, that will be unable to see such small size.

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by DieterS

So let me ask you a question. What should be the minimum height of the score and time numerals?

Many people would argue that that numbers on an SG-12ST are already close to the minimum for a strip (and too small for spectators). However if this is just for the fencers and the referee anything large enough to be read from the end of the strip (say 30-35 feet away) would suffice. It might even be enough to just be able to see that numbers are changing (i.e. the clock is running) while fencing, then stop and actually read the numbers during the halts (not ideal for fencers who are trying to count down every second but certainly no worse than having to ask for the time remaining after every halt).

I believe there is an ASTM stanard for ergonomics - it may include display sizes based on the distance from the display to the reader. I'll try to look for it when I get into the office tomorrow.

[KD5MDK]

I would say the SG-12ST has about the smallest time I'm comfortable with. I'd accept the score being a similar size.

[chefencer]

Ha! My only issue is if your fencing without he micro-interruptions at club and then go out into the rest of the world...

[brtech]

ANY scoring machine? Meaning you are going to look at the lights to decide to stop the clock? Through the extension light socket or photosensors? If the former, will it work with the Favero serial protocol?

I wonder if you could do a noise threshold with the buzzer to stop the clock. Less accurate, but only one sensor needed. Tape a mic near the buzzer hole.

Please remember that the remote is the single biggest headache in S/T. Ruggedness of the remote, and off-angle reliability are very hard to do right.

[DieterS]

Originally Posted by SJCFU#2

Many people would argue that that numbers on an SG-12ST are already close to the minimum for a strip (and too small for spectators).

The numbers on the SG12-ST look pretty small to me--how tall are they? They can't be really be used as endlights, can they? I was thinking about 3" (7.62 cm) as a minimum height for numerals.

I believe there is an ASTM stanard for ergonomics - it may include display sizes based on the distance from the display to the reader. I'll try to look for it when I get into the office tomorrow.

I wonder whether they make a distinction between lighted and printed characters.

Thanks!

Dieter
Eigertek

[DieterS]

Originally Posted by chefencer

Ha! My only issue is if your fencing without he micro-interruptions at club and then go out into the rest of the world...

Yes, that's a good point. Actually, at least one other manufacturer has added logic to fix the problems with the FIE T2005 foil timings. I would assume the others will also follow suit soon, if they have not already done so.

Dieter
Eigertek

[DieterS]

Originally Posted by brtech

ANY scoring machine? Meaning you are going to look at the lights to decide to stop the clock? Through the extension light socket or photosensors? If the former, will it work with the Favero serial protocol?

Most any scoring machine. As far as I know, Favero is the only machine that uses the serial protocol. We do not plan to support serial. As for the others, we can supply connectors for the other socket types. No, we're not going to use light or sound sensors.

Please remember that the remote is the single biggest headache in S/T. Ruggedness of the remote, and off-angle reliability are very hard to do right.

Sorry to hear that. Sporting equipment by definition needs to be rugged and reliable. We'll certainly bear that in mind.

Dieter
Eigertek

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by DieterS

The numbers on the SG12-ST look pretty small to me--how tall are they? They can't be really be used as endlights, can they? I was thinking about 3" (7.62 cm) as a minimum height for numerals.

What do you mean by "endlights"? Do you mean "an indication that time has expired"? That's what the buzzer is for.
It should be noted that the score is larger on the -12ST than the clock.

[DieterS]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

What do you mean by "endlights"? Do you mean "an indication that time has expired"? That's what the buzzer is for.
It should be noted that the score is larger on the -12ST than the clock.

No, by endlights, I mean extension lights placed at each end of a strip where (hopefully) each fencer can easily see the score and time remaining.

Dieter

[KD5MDK]

Oh, as extensions of a main box. No, I don't think they'd be very useful for that. Then again, I just about never see setups that elaborate. I think most people just want to be able to have score and time at all on a box.

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by SJCFU#2

I believe there is an ASTM standard for ergonomics - it may include display sizes based on the distance from the display to the reader. I'll try to look for it when I get into the office tomorrow.

I'm afraid the ASTM spec won't be much help. It primarily deals with consoles where the operator is assumed to be within 1525 mm (5 ft) of the display.

Originally Posted by DieterS

The numbers on the SG12-ST look pretty small to me--how tall are they? They can't be really be used as endlights, can they? I was thinking about 3" (7.62 cm) as a minimum height for numerals.

Originally Posted by DieterS

No, by endlights, I mean extension lights placed at each end of a strip where (hopefully) each fencer can easily see the score and time remaining.

I made a quick eye-chart with various sized letters, and from 30 feet away I would say that 1-inch numbers was about the minimum for my 40+ year old eyes (1.5-inches was better). Three-inches seemed absolutely huge - almost like the displays I see on pedestrian traffic signals that count down the time remaining before the light changes (of course I see a lot of pedestrians who seem oblivious to them so maybe they need to be even larger).

I also looked at a picture of a Favero FA-05 (sorry, but I don't have an actual machine lying about that I can measure). It appears to use 9x5 matrices for numbers in the time display and 11x6 matrices for the score displays. Given the overall dimensions of the machine, this works out to be about 2-inch numbers for the time and between maybe 2.5-inch numbers for the score.

As far as putting a display at each end of the strip goes - it's a nice idea and I can see why you would want 3-inch letter for that. However for most people a display near each end of the strip would probably be a luxury and possibly even a hindrance (more things for people to trip over). I would suggest maybe developing the endlights as a high-end option to go with a simple (and less expensive) display that sits near mid-strip along with the machine.

[the ancient one]

Originally Posted by SJCFU#2

"...
I made a quick eye-chart with various sized letters, and from 30 feet away I would say that 1-inch numbers was about the minimum for my 40+ year old eyes (1.5-inches was better).

So you resolved tan^-1(1/360)=0.16 degrees with a little difficulty. Very good. Wait until you are 45+!

That is in line with the Snellen chart. At 20/20 (6/6 in Europe) you are expected to resolve a letter (opotype) that is 0.2 degrees high. If a scoring box is midpoint on a 17 meter strip, at 8.5 meters the character height should be 25mm for 20/20. A 20/40 eye will need ~50 mm to get the same information.

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by the ancient one

Wait until you are 45+!

Already there.

[DieterS]

Great suggestions, SJCFU#2 and the ancient one! You've convinced me that we don't need to go larger than 3" (7.62 cm) for the numerals. Plus, you've given me some innovative ideas . . .

Now, how about volume? Some people complain that the Eclipse is too quiet. I consider that it's "polite" in a mixed-use/university/club environment. We did beef up the volume a little in the 2007 Eclipse. Nevertheless, enough people here have annoyed me about the volume so I'm determined to add a horn to the extension lights that will sterilize frogs at 14m and draw noise abatement complaints from nearby steel mills. Yes, will put a volume knob on the box. Any comments?

Dieter
Eigertek

[the ancient one]

I can't be nearly as helpful when it comes to sound.

There have been studies which conclude that humans are much less able to locate the source of a sine waveform compared to more complex waveforms.

Sometimes it is hard to distinguish which nearby strip has registered a touch and I find myself taking an unadvisable peek at the box; I am sure that nobody else does that.

I will send a link if I can find the source documents.