A note to tournament organizers about referee compensation

[KD5MDK]

Please don't say "We pay USFA rates" if you don't include a per diem.
I'm willing to accept that most everywhere won't be flying their referees in. I understand that paying proper IRS mileage rates for driving to a tournament is impractical. But to say you pay USFA rates without including the $20/day per diem is just not accurate.

This is particularly bad when you look at the low end of the scale: 6-10 and (to a lesser extend) 4-5. For a 6-10 referee, the fact that he's being paid by the USFA to go to a tournament is their real reward: they're being groomed for rating increases, if possible. Your local open is a highly unlikely place for someone to get their 5. To take away half of the non-reimbursement compensation they would receive, without reducing their expenses (are you paying for dinner?) is an extremely bad deal for them. For higher rated officials, 4-5 range, it's still nearly 1/3 of their USFA compensation.

I'm not going to argue what a proper pay rate for a referee is. You should decide what their services are worth and pay them accordingly, and they should look at the circumstances you provide and decide whether or not to work for you accordingly. Someone like Mauler, competent in 3 weapons, willing to work long hours and at all levels without complaint, it worth a lot more than a one weapon only referee who complains all the time and is never where you need them.

But to say you pay USFA rates when an official will receive more money for attending a national tournament, when you don't include either per diem or all 3 meals, is not accurate.

This message brought to you by several experiences last year.

[downunder]

In Australia I was never compensated a cent for my refereeing, not even for fuel.

Whilst I understand your frustrations, perhaps a general moan on a forum is not the best way to go about it. Present your requirements to organisers and they will either compensate you as required or you can simply not offer your services next time around. If you are only there in the name of being 'groomed for rating increases' then perhaps then you arn't being entirely screwed over.

[pinkelephant]

But we treat you better in the UK, don't we?

I have a new system for my refereeing services. Those competitions which treat me properly will get my services all weekend for 2 weapons, and I will stay to the bitter end. Those which don't will find me competing as a fencer, NOT volunteering to referee their finals for them (UK Opens have often relied on the goodwill of eliminated fencers), and leaving when I and my offspring have been eliminated. UK refs are getting militant!

[occasionalfencer]

Originally Posted by downunder

In Australia I was never compensated a cent for my refereeing, not even for fuel.

Whilst I understand your frustrations, perhaps a general moan on a forum is not the best way to go about it. Present your requirements to organisers and they will either compensate you as required or you can simply not offer your services next time around. If you are only there in the name of being 'groomed for rating increases' then perhaps then you arn't being entirely screwed over.

I am not referee, so I have no dog in this fight, I just am interested in clarity of communication. I did not read the original post as a personal moan about a specific event, but rather exactly the kind of general comment about a widespread practice that this forum is so good for. If you know more about the particular person posting than I do, perhaps your rebuke is more pertinent than I think it is. It seems to me that your situation (never getting compensated for refereeing) is in a totally diffferent category. Presumably the organisers did not claim that they would pay a certain rate, and then fail to do so.

[qatet]

KD5MDK, I recently got an email looking for refs that was saying exactly that and boy was it a good way to ensure that I won't be reffing for them. If I ref and manage the tournaments at my club I earn almost enough in the course of a month to pay my rent and I depend on that income. There's very little incentive to go through the hassle of traveling more than the 15 minutes it takes me to get to my club when the rates offered are USFA rates. And that would be the same if I were a 1-rated ref.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by downunder

In Australia I was never compensated a cent for my refereeing, not even for fuel.

Do you even have cents in Australia? I thought kangaroo hides, boomerangs and digeridoos were used as the currency down there...

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by downunder

In Australia I was never compensated a cent for my refereeing, not even for fuel.

Whilst I understand your frustrations, perhaps a general moan on a forum is not the best way to go about it. Present your requirements to organisers and they will either compensate you as required or you can simply not offer your services next time around. If you are only there in the name of being 'groomed for rating increases' then perhaps then you arn't being entirely screwed over.

I'm not at local tournaments to be groomed for rating increases. The only place I'm working for rating increases is Junior and Div I NACs. (We'll leave my foil level out of this).

The USFA has set a structure for compensation that covers a great many topics, from being put up in nice hotels, a compensation scheme that includes an honorarium and per diem, travel costs, and the opportunity to be observed for some people. For the lower level referees, 6-10, they are only getting $20 a day plus $20 per diem. If a local tournament says they're paying USFA rates, but doesn't include the per diem, this 6-10 referee is getting half of what the USFA would offer, with a much lower grade hotel, fewer travel costs, and less opportunity to be observed and develop.

I'm not saying tournaments can't set their rates at whatever they want. But I don't think they can honestly say they're paying USFA rates without including the per diem at the least, and that's what many tournaments advertise.

(To add a humorous note, I was just contacted by a tournament that said it would pay in accordance with the Section guidelines. I'm the Section Vice Chair and I just searched our website and I'm not aware of any Section Guidelines for referee pay. It's a good thing I trust them to do things right. )

[Philistine]

Would you expect a per diem if the tournament was providing meals?

--Philistine

[oso97]

Originally Posted by Philistine

Would you expect a per diem if the tournament was providing meals?

--Philistine

If and only if they meals included breakfast, lunch AND dinner both days of the tournament, and dinner on the Friday night before.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by oso97

If and only if they meals included breakfast, lunch AND dinner both days of the tournament, and dinner on the Friday night before.

I think this doesn't mean what you meant to say. :)

My personal pet peeve is when "Standard rates and mileage" is advertised and then tournament organizers use a formula that's anything but standard (unless one considers their division's semi-arbitrary-created and totally unique system a "standard") for mileage.

Example: Take your mileage and subtract 30 miles (or 50 or 60, all of which I've seen). We'll then pay $X/mile for the remainder, where X is ~60% of the standard rate paid by the USFA.

Example 2: "Standard mileage" means actual out-of-pocket gas expense. POSSIBLY including tolls, with negotiation, although receipts may be required (which is difficult with EZPass or without advance notice).

Example 3: Organizer just makes up a number, which frequently doesn't even meet actual out-of-pocket expenses. Numbers are fairly arbitrary and not proportionate to distance travelled.

As a referee who travels extensively to tournaments, I want to know what I'm being offered up front, before I commit to the trip. Money is extremely fungible, so if there's less being offered in the mileage, etc. categories that's exactly equivalent to me to being offered less in "base" pay. I lump it all in together, subtract out my costs, and then compare the final number to what it would require for it to be worthwhile (which then factors in lots of non-financial information both related and unrelated to the fencing world).

I don't think that there are attempts being made to defraud would-be referees. I chalk it up to tournament organizers who simply don't realize what their statements mean to the potential official. Especially those organizers who have a misunderstanding of what "standards" apply to the position. A thread such as this one is a good way to spread the information a bit wider and raise awareness in those that might be looking to organize future tournaments.

-B

[rsy]

What is the USFA rate of compensation for referees or where can it be found?

-r

[IHateMrPotatohead]

Local tournaments of any descent size should pay at least USFA rates. There are several I've worked that pay better.

However, there are definitely many in my Section that believe that providing lunch is payment enough. *sigh* I hope they wake up soon....

[oso97]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

I think this doesn't mean what you meant to say.

Actually, its exactly what I meant to say .

When I'm contacted about potentially refereeing a tournament, I'm very up front with them. I tell them that I expect full USFA perdiem and honorarium, and travel expenses. Now, often the travel expenses will be the negotiable portion, as its often cheaper to fly than to drive to other cities in Texas, so I'll accept the lower number. But the per diem is the portion that I use to feed myself dinner. If they're providing dinner, then fine, don't pay the per diem. If these arrangements are not acceptable, then fine, I'll stay home that weekend, or I'll work another tournament, or I'll coach my students at a tournament, or I'll do something entirely unrelated to fencing.

Which is not to say I'm always completely mercenary. There are several tournaments a year (including our division qualifiers) that I work completely for free. And others where I work at a substantially reduced rate, which is negotiated in advance.

But, I'm sorry, one thing I absolutely won't do is to travel out of town, and SPEND money for the privilege of refereeing multiple events and weapons each day for two days, eating lousy food, staying in a fleabag motel, and getting back after 9pm on Sunday night. Did that for too many years while I was in referee training.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by rsy

What is the USFA rate of compensation for referees or where can it be found?

-r

http://fencingofficials.org/Document...rm_9-11-05.pdf

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by oso97

Actually, its exactly what I meant to say :).

Read those posts again. Carefully.

What you've actually said is that you expect a per diem if and only if they ARE providing all seven meals over the weekend. At which point a per diem should be superfluous.

Now you might actually mean what you said. You might really only expect a per diem from organizers that are so official-friendly as to provide all meals and not expect one if even a single meal is omitted. I just suspect that is not what you actually intended.

-B

[oso97]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Read those posts again. Carefully.

What you've actually said is that you expect a per diem if and only if they ARE providing all seven meals over the weekend. At which point a per diem should be superfluous.

Now you might actually mean what you said. You might really only expect a per diem from organizers that are so official-friendly as to provide all meals and not expect one if even a single meal is omitted. I just suspect that is not what you actually intended.

-B

Hahahahaha... I see what you're saying. Yea, that original statement could be looked at in a couple of different ways.

[larkmaj]

Originally Posted by tbryan

http://fencingofficials.org/Document...rm_9-11-05.pdf

Good to know, thanks.

Originally Posted by oiuyt

My personal pet peeve is when "Standard rates and mileage" is advertised and then tournament organizers use a formula that's anything but standard (unless one considers their division's semi-arbitrary-created and totally unique system a "standard") for mileage.

So what is "standard rates and mileage"? Seeing as it's not on the form tbryan posted.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by larkmaj

So what is "standard rates and mileage"? Seeing as it's not on the form tbryan posted.

Pulling from the various sections of the policy (posted by tbryan):

Originally Posted by USFA volunteer officials reimbursement policy

5. PER DIEM
Per diem will be paid to Volunteer Officials at the rate of $20 for each day of service plus travel days.

<SNIP>

6. HONORARIUM
Honorarium is paid for service days to referees according to their rating and to FOC representatives using the following scale: 1 & 2, A & B, and FOC representatives, $100; 3, $65; 4 & 5, $45; 6 through 10, $20. Honorarium is paid for service days to other Volunteer Officials (Tournament Committee, Bout Committee, Armorers and Trainers, etc.) at the rate of $75 per day.

Originally Posted by USFA volunteer officials reimbursement policy

2. GROUND TRANSPORTATION AND PARKING
Travel by personal vehicle will be reimbursed at the published IRS standard business mileage rate in effect on August 1 of the current fiscal year

On August 1st, 2007, the IRS standard business mileage rate was $0.485. That is the rate that the USFA will be paying for 2007-2008.

-B

[MyrddinsPrecint]

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