Vezzali vs Lamanova YouTube ROW question

[dramamine]

absolutely zero question, beat attack from the right.

[OROD]

Originally Posted by Lemonaide

Don't you just love foil?

You mean, dont you love womens foil?

Sorry, but I'm not that impressed with Vezzali's fencing. She pretty much does what almost every woman foilist I've ever fenced does, wait for her opponent to begin moving and then counter-attack into them. Hell, just about every other touch is Vezzali counter-attacking.

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[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by OROD

Sorry, but I'm not that impressed with Vezzali's fencing. She pretty much does what almost every woman foilist I've ever fenced does, wait for her opponent to begin moving and then counter-attack into them. Hell, just about every other touch is Vezzali counter-attacking.

Her control of timing and tempo is fantastic, however.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by OROD

You mean, dont you love womens foil?

Sorry, but I'm not that impressed with Vezzali's fencing. She pretty much does what almost every woman foilist I've ever fenced does, wait for her opponent to begin moving and then counter-attack into them. Hell, just about every other touch is Vezzali counter-attacking.

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Yep, that would describe at least a good 50-60% of ALL the actions that I've ever refereed in Women's Foil.

[TooLoftheDeviL]

Originally Posted by OROD

You mean, dont you love womens foil?

Sorry, but I'm not that impressed with Vezzali's fencing. She pretty much does what almost every woman foilist I've ever fenced does, wait for her opponent to begin moving and then counter-attack into them. Hell, just about every other touch is Vezzali counter-attacking.

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This is extremely over simplified to an alarming degree. To say that Vezzali is JUST counter-attacking whenever her opponent moves forward does an injustice to her control over the distance and timing in the actions. She may be counter-attacking in half the actions, and is probably not making the best decision to utilize them while Lamonova is correctly executing her attacks into the close distance, but look at the amazing attacks Vezzali is making in the other actions during the clip. It really emphasizes her control over the distance in the bout.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by TooLoftheDeviL

This is extremely over simplified to an alarming degree. To say that Vezzali is JUST counter-attacking whenever her opponent moves forward does an injustice to her control over the distance and timing in the actions.

Which doesn't make it any more exciting and interesting to watch...

[DanInMI]

Originally Posted by Foilling Around

But the arm doesn't keep extending, in fact it withdraws, so how is it one continuous attack!!

I thought the FIE were trying to get away from this point going towards the target because the feet were taking it there business!!

Omigawd...you have got to be kidding. you can beat the blade and draw your weapon back to your ear and chase your opponent all the way down the strip before you extend again and actually finish. (i have actually seen "a" rated fencers attack with thier point aimed at the cord reel behind them and be awarded the right of way)

So this little bend of the arm is nothing.

Really, there is nothing wrong with that timing. I am sure that the only reason that Vezali thought it was her touch is that she thought the beat was her parry.

[DanInMI]

The very next point, however, was a horrible call. The score is 11-10 lamonova. Lamonova repeatedly beats Vezzaly's blade with an upward beat cearly demonstrating that her intent is to engage the blade with that action.) But when she goes for the beat attack she misses the blade. She is very clearly derobed by vezzaly, both extend and hit. Yet the ref awards the touch to lamonova.

Vezzali would have, should have, won.

[OROD]

Originally Posted by DanInMI

The very next point, however, was a horrible call... But when she [Lamonova] goes for the beat attack she misses the blade. She is very clearly derobed by vezzaly, both extend and hit. Yet the ref awards the touch to lamonova.

Are you serious? That touch is clearly an attack by Lamonova and (again) a counter-attack by Vezzali. It doesnt even look at all like a missed attempt at beat, or any derobement by Vezzali.

Vezzali just needs to stop counter-attacking and work for some touches if she wanted to win.

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[edew]

Don't watch the slo-mo (other than to notice that the beat did not occur). Watch the regular action and you will see Lamanova make a search and then attack. At normal speed, the call would be beat-attack by Lamanova. In slo-mo, you'll notice that the beat missed, hence the search had failed and thus the right to attack passed to Vezzali. I commented on this particular phrase several posts back in this thread. (I may have said it occurred at a different juncture, but this phrase was the one I was referring to.)

[downunder]

Originally Posted by edew

In slo-mo, you'll notice that the beat missed, hence the search had failed and thus the right to attack passed to Vezzali.

Er what?

Looking at the slow motion it looks fairly clear to me that Vezzali's counter action is executed with a bent arm. I agree with the referee at both full speed and slowed right down.

[OROD]

Originally Posted by edew

Don't watch the slo-mo (other than to notice that the beat did not occur). Watch the regular action and you will see Lamanova make a search and then attack. At normal speed, the call would be beat-attack by Lamanova. In slo-mo, you'll notice that the beat missed, hence the search had failed and thus the right to attack passed to Vezzali. I commented on this particular phrase several posts back in this thread. (I may have said it occurred at a different juncture, but this phrase was the one I was referring to.)

Slo-mo or not, it looks the same... attack for Lamanova, counter-attack for Vezzali.

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[Durando]

Originally Posted by downunder

Er what?

Looking at the slow motion it looks fairly clear to me that Vezzali's counter action is executed with a bent arm. I agree with the referee at both full speed and slowed right down.

Although I find it generally very easy to agree with downunder when it comes to this sort of thing, it should be noted that (unless it was edited out) Vezzali didn't appeal for a video replay.

[DanInMI]

Originally Posted by OROD

Slo-mo or not, it looks the same... attack for Lamanova, counter-attack for Vezzali.

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It was...but Lamanova's beat attack failed. It is especially obvious since Lamanova repeatedly shows her intention by beating upward in exactly the same manner several times before that action.

I am glad i am not in danger of having you as my ref any time soon.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by DanInMI

It was...but Lamanova's beat attack failed. It is especially obvious since Lamanova repeatedly shows her intention by beating upward in exactly the same manner several times before that action.

I am glad i am not in danger of having you as my ref any time soon.

In slow motion, you can see that Vezzali's counter-action is made with a bent arm and is not correct. It is Lamanova's hit, as stated many a time.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by DanInMI

I am glad i am not in danger of having you as my ref any time soon.

likewise

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by IanSerotkin

It's a very clear beat attack; the ref was absolutely correct. I can't believe anyone would have a problem with that call. How could it possibly be broken-time when the attack comes in the same tempo as the beat?

Agreed. a complete non-issue.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by Dev

But I'm a nobody. I imagine all of our UK visitors arguing the other way are "somebodies"?

given what they're arguing, I truly doubt it. I really can't believe this call is generating this much discussion... it is CLEARLY Lamanova's beat attack. If our British friends are "somebodies" then I'd suggest there's an easy way to win British nationals: wait for your opponent to beat and then brazenly and fearlessly counterattack into their attack. In order to hit you, they'll have to collapse their arm, which will (according to our British friends) give you the touch.

Ridiculous....

-m

[TooLoftheDeviL]

If anything, I'd suggest using the video as a check against oneself. The referee is correct on all accounts, and it would behoove one to use this video as a learning tool to understand why the referee calls the actions the way he does.

[KD5MDK]

The British people who contensted the issue over there were parents and local level fencers confused by a literal reading of the rulebook.