Women fencer's ratings

[pacer]

There have been threads about what to do to get a rating, etc., but I am wondering if other divisions have difficulty getting enough women fencers to particpate in an event to award ratings. In my division, we seldom get six women fencers in one event, so in order for our women to get a rating they either need to win it at a national event or do well enough to get it at a mixed competition. Experience shows that the women rarely can place high enough in a mixed event to earn a rating. Any ideas?

[IHateMrPotatohead]

We have trouble getting enough women for a separate event as well. However, my experience says that there are many, many women who have earned their ratings at mixed events. (Myself included.)

[CvilleFencer]

Many/most of our divisions women fencers earned their ratings in mixed events. Most of them would kick your ass for suggesting that they can't earn their ratings with the boys. This is fencing after all, not boxing or wrestling with weight classes. Although I can think of a couple of our women fencers I wouldn't want to throw down with, and I don't say that about many folks...

Lately, at the larger events (Kickoff, Hangover, etc) we have been offering separate womens events and then a mixed event on a different day. This gives the women the chance to fence in a fashion similar to what they would do at a NAC, but the downside is that these events are rarely more than a b1/b2 event. So the girls do them for fun and a change of pace and then fence in the mixed events to update their C's and B's and work on getting their A's.

For most of our normal open events, they are mixed to keep the numbers up. We could run seperate events, but it would be a week event for the women (likely a C1 or maybe a B1) due to the numbers.

Maybe an answer for your division would be to do something like an Amazon Open type event a couple times a year and run the rest of the events mixed. This way the women get an event all their own that can be promoted (if done well) to draw in women fencers from outside the Division/Area and improve the ratings.

[pacer]

Thanks, I think some of our teen aged girl fencers feel a bit overwhelmed by the guys, who in some instances can out muscle them and some may back out of an event if there aren't enough fencers to award a rating.

[pacer]

Cville, I agree that a rating should be "earned" and can be gotten in a mixed event. I am division chair this year and have already heard "we need more women's events..." It is likely an attitude issue that some of the girls have the feeling they cannot succeed at a mixed event.

[Jay Kominek]

Originally Posted by pacer

Thanks, I think some of our teen aged girl fencers feel a bit overwhelmed by the guys, who in some instances can out muscle them...

This is something that coaches ought to be able to address, either by explaining that fencing isn't a contest of upper body strength, and/or helping the girls fence to their strengths, and avoid their weakness (presumably upper body strength).

Originally Posted by pacer

...and some may back out of an event if there aren't enough fencers to award a rating.

Perhaps we (in Colorado, at least) could institute a system of "if your women's event doesn't make E1, but you fence anyways, we'll give you a coupon to discount your entry in another women's event, later". That way they're getting something to alleviate the risk of attending an event that doesn't make the rating.

For what it is worth, I've also had some luck explaining to people that, if they're going to stick with the sport of an extended period of time, they're doing themselves a favor when they show up as a warm body to help make a higher event rating. It increases the number of rated fencers that will be present at tournaments in the future, when they (the fledgling fencer) have become good enough to make it to a rating-earning spot. Explaining that is something else the coaches could do to help the situation.

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by pacer

Thanks, I think some of our teen aged girl fencers feel a bit overwhelmed by the guys, who in some instances can out muscle them and some may back out of an event if there aren't enough fencers to award a rating.

Okay... we have a different system here, and I only compete against other women (which makes it hard because I usually practice with men), so I might be missing something here....

The way I see it, if there aren't enough females to hold an event, surely there are fewer females than males at the club. So the female teens should be used to fencing guys an have an advantage of those who practice and compete mainly with other women since males and females fence differently.

These teens need to develop techniques and strategies that allow them to win against a variety of opponents. This is the true meaning of a rating. It indicates you have reached a certain proficiency. And yes... I realize in the different states this level of proficiency is not consistent. So the real question for these girls is do you want to earn your rating or have things made easier so you never feel you deserve their rating? What's the point in earning something that doesn't make you equal with others with the same rating?

[SJCFU#2]

One other approach is to schedule separate mens and womens events side-by-side, with the option of merging into a mixed event if either fails to reach a certain, preset level that is announced in advance so that people hopefully have some idea what they are signing up for (askFRED helps when keeping track of how things are developing).

This approach avoids the unfairness associated with a combination of mixed and womens events (women are allowed to fence in two events whereas men are limited to only one), while also providing an incentive for the women (or men) who do not want to fence mixed events to drum up enough entries to keep them separate. The downside is that it can require more strips and officials to support to two events simultaneously than it would if the two were combined.

The alternative is to list an event as mixed, with a stated policy that it can be split into separate mens and womens events if turnout is sufficient. However my feeling is that people are more likely to sign up hoping to keep separate events from merging than hoping a mixed event will eventually be split.

[the ancient one]

Try the marathon format.

Run the competition on Saturday and then the same event again on Sunday.

That way you can get a better draw, two shots at placement and more bang for your travel buck.

It is also interesting to see how fencers use Saturday experience to adjust their game on Sunday.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by SJCFU#2

The downside is that it can require more strips and officials to support to two events simultaneously than it would if the two were combined.

Could you explain how that works?

I see some marginal situations that can induce 1, MAYBE 2 delays on the order of 10 minutes over the course of a day. I don't see how overall there's a significant delay factor added. I don't see how the strip/officials resources are changed at all. Except, of course, if it increases participation. In which case adding to the overhead is presumably a trade-off we desire.

Assuming we're holding the total number of entries constant, how does having two events (with no overlap between them) require higher resources than a single event with the combined set of entrants?

-B

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by the ancient one

Try the marathon format.

Run the competition on Saturday and then the same event again on Sunday.

That way you can get a better draw, two shots at placement and more bang for your travel buck.

It is also interesting to see how fencers use Saturday experience to adjust their game on Sunday.

Just curious, but is this a theoretical format or one that you/your division uses? In my neck of the woods, if you have a Ratings Rally type event (Lets say U foil/D saber on Saturday and C foil/C epee on Sunday) you rarely will see the U's for foil show up for the C and under event. This usually means a C1/C2 event. If they all came back out for the second day, we could probably hit C3 at some of our better attended Ratings Rally events. Obvious benefit to the U rated fencers is more bouts, more ratings for everyone who deserves them and experience fencing those at the next level or two of experience. Despite that, they usually stay home for the second day.

Any thoughts on how to get those "One day of fencing is enough for me" and "I don't want to get my but kicked by D/C rated fencers" mentality type fencers to come out the next day would be greatly appreciated...

[KD5MDK]

Just to check Cville, y'all aren't using ratings earned in the previous day in the next day's events, right?

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Many/most of our divisions women fencers earned their ratings in mixed events. Most of them would kick your ass for suggesting that they can't earn their ratings with the boys. This is fencing after all, not boxing or wrestling with weight classes. Although I can think of a couple of our women fencers I wouldn't want to throw down with, and I don't say that about many folks...

I have no facts to back this up, and understand how terribly un-PC it is to say, but it's been my experience that ratings earned at gender separated events by women are noticeably weaker then their male counterparts on the whole.

This is to say that that, as my division holds mostly single gender events, when they are mixed, the women with a certain rating tend to perform worse than their male counterparts. I can't speak for the other 2 weapons, but in epee it's just a different game. Again, from personal experience, I've been able to regularly hold my own and/or beat several people on the woman's SR point list in both 5 and 15 touch bouts, but I've never been been able to do the same for people on the Men's point list.

All people are not actually created equal.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

I have no facts to back this up, and understand how terribly un-PC it is to say, but it's been my experience that ratings earned at gender separated events by women are noticeably weaker then their male counterparts on the whole.

This is to say that that, as my division holds mostly single gender events, when they are mixed, the women with a certain rating tend to perform worse than their male counterparts. I can't speak for the other 2 weapons, but in epee it's just a different game. Again, from personal experience, I've been able to regularly hold my own and/or beat several people on the woman's SR point list in both 5 and 15 touch bouts, but I've never been been able to do the same for people on the Men's point list.

All people are not actually created equal.

The point wasn't that a mens rating and a women's rating is the SAME. The point is that a female that has a B in epee (in New England) might not get a B in a mixed event (or might not as easily).... But that that female would be able to get SOME rating.

Sorry, babe. Missed the point.

[the ancient one]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Just curious, but is this a theoretical format or one that you/your division uses? In my neck of the woods, if you have a Ratings Rally type event ...

My experience (participation, not organizing) with the Marathon format was back in the late 70's in San Antonio, Texas.

The US Modern Pentathalon Training center at Ft. Sam Houston put on 2 big epee tournaments each year. The Marathon epee tournament ran the same event both days and had awards for each day and the overall winner as well.

It was a good long drive from Dallas/Fort Worth to SA, so the double experience was worth the drive. The other thing is that they invited top US and International fencers to fly in and the format made it worth while for them as well. I never considered that it was a "ratings rally"; actually haven't heard of the concept until recently.

[the ancient one]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

"...Any thoughts on how to get those "One day of fencing is enough for me" and "I don't want to get my but kicked by D/C rated fencers" mentality type fencers to come out the next day would be greatly appreciated...

Back then I went specifically to risk getting my butt kicked by the A's and to see just how far I could get. I like being in over my head.

You need a "mob psychology" dynamic to get the more anemic fencers involved. You know, let's go get our butts kicked together etc...I would convince the other less committed club members that the joy of it all was putting up a good fight more than winning, that the experience would give them the ability to improve faster, and that a nice little party afterwards would more than compensate.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

we could probably hit C3 at some of our better attended Ratings Rally events.

I just spot-checked a bunch of your RR results from last season. I think just getting people to compete in both tournaments won't be sufficient.

A C3 requires 24 D-or-better fencers. The RR's I looked at seemd to top out in the mid-teens. Just boosting the warm-body counts isn't enough for what you want.

-B

[edew]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Could you explain how that works?

I see some marginal situations that can induce 1, MAYBE 2 delays on the order of 10 minutes over the course of a day. I don't see how overall there's a significant delay factor added. I don't see how the strip/officials resources are changed at all. Except, of course, if it increases participation. In which case adding to the overhead is presumably a trade-off we desire.

Assuming we're holding the total number of entries constant, how does having two events (with no overlap between them) require higher resources than a single event with the combined set of entrants?

-B

Suppose you have 30 fencers 15 men, 15 women. Mixed, it would be 5 pools of 6. Separated, and insisting on balanced pools, would be 3 pools of 5 for the men, 3 pools of 5 for the women. They'll all get more bouts (by one more) in the mixed format than the separated format and would require one fewer referee and strip.

DE bouts will be the same number will be comparable (#DE bouts should be #fencers - 1).

[oiuyt]

8 fencers of each gender.

16 total for 3 pools of 5 and 6.

8 of each gender for 2 pools of 8. Each fencer gets 2-3 more bouts and we're using 1 less strip and referee.

These are stupid fringe effects. The actual numbers can be generated to push the fringe effect in either direction. It doesn't change that combining doesn't somehow reduce the amount of fencing done (and therefore reduce the resource requirement). There aren't any economies of scale operating here.

-B