Schools of Fencing

[Durando]

One of the "delusions" of fencing from the old days was the ideal of Honor. It was not customary for one fencer to demean another. Perhaps you could take a lesson from the traditions of fencing that you are so eager to dismiss as rubbish:

Durando, lemon_fresh, HDG and Rebelfencer.

I dismiss no traditions; I dismiss you. Nobody invited you to come in and piss all over an activity you so clearly dislike. It was you who were demeaning, you little troll. In a thread devoted to talking about the schools of fencing, you chose to turn your nose up at us, contribute nothing, all in hopes of talking about what you wanted to talk about. Which I repeat wasn't the subject at hand.

So get bent, fanboy. Nobody needs your lectures on honor or, for that matter, on the history of arms. Read deeper in the forum and then blush once you understand the depth of knowledge and experience represented here.

Now off you go on your big wheeler.

[jeff]

How delightful! We haven't had a pompous CF loon appear on this board for months, and this prize specimen drops out of the sky during the summer doldrums. We have a number of CF people on the board who are quite nice, and actually know a thing or to about fencing, but this ignoramus is neither. Anyone care to guess how long and how well he's been fencing? Can we keep him as a pet?

[telkanuru]

One of the "delusions" of fencing from the old days was the ideal of Honor. It was not customary for one fencer to demean another. Perhaps you could take a lesson from the traditions of fencing that you are so eager to dismiss as rubbish:

Honor, at least what most CF fencers define as such, is mainly an invention of the Victorian period in order to romanticize a previous era. Seriously, get over yourself.

A curled back arm tenses the entire shoulder area, leading to a stiff sword arm which leads to large and jerky blade movements.

Bent arm lunges are useful when protected by convention.OMFG there's a bunch of people playing a game with an arbitrary rules system! ALERT THE INTERNETS!

Bouncing footwork allows for extraordinarily fine distance and tempo control. I have no doubt that if duels of days of yore were actually always situated in an environment with good traction and stable ground, you would be currently defending it as a tried and true technique. Really, all your comments do is make you look entirely ignorant.

I don't give a damn how good you look. If we were to fence, I'd stab you. Why? For the same reason a modern Ferrari will beat a Model-T in a drag race. It evolved. Guess what? That means you're dead.

Oh, and in case this was to civil and/or made too much sense, I encourage you to find yourself a nice big fire and die in it.

One of these days I will finish building a device that allows me to stab people in the face over the internet.

[RebelFencer]

Your signature has never suited you more Telk.

[lemon__fresh]

awwww, now he stopped arguing, just when it was getting good. Maybe he will go and get his friends to help him!

[KD5MDK]

One of these days I will finish building a device that allows me to stab people in the face over the internet.

SUSMe? (If you can guess what I derived this from, don't mention it)

[RITFencing]

Your signature has never suited you more Telk.

I agree; that is an awesome sig.

[Goldgar]

A curled back arm tenses the entire shoulder area, leading to a stiff sword arm which leads to large and jerky blade movements.

I don't find this to be true, once a fencer has learned to relax in the position. This particular dictum is every bit as arbitrary as those the CFers spout.

[Ormus]

Honor, at least what most CF fencers define as such, is mainly an invention of the Victorian period in order to romanticize a previous era. Seriously, get over yourself.

Honour goes hand in hand with good sportsmanship and intelligence. The matter of honour as an ideal cannot be traced to any specific time period and especially not as late as the Victorian period. If any peiod were historically emblematic of honour it would be the Age of Chivalry. About 500 years prior to the Victorian period.

A curled back arm tenses the entire shoulder area, leading to a stiff sword arm which leads to large and jerky blade movements.

This is a common myth among modern fencers. If this were the case would duelists and fencers have employed it for hundreds of years. The freearm is held up at an angle for BALANCE. And if it tenses your shoulders it is because your mind is telling you that it is tensing your shoulders.

Bent arm lunges are useful when protected by convention.OMFG there's a bunch of people playing a game with an arbitrary rules system! ALERT THE INTERNETS!

I didn't say that they were never useful, the truth is that using them ALL the time is using poor tactic. A fully extended arm threatens the opponent and establishes priority over a bent arm. Come at me with bent arm and you will meet my stop hit right in your bib! After a couple of bouts we will see if you still think a bent arm is a good attack.

Bouncing footwork allows for extraordinarily fine distance and tempo control. I have no doubt that if duels of days of yore were actually always situated in an environment with good traction and stable ground, you would be currently defending it as a tried and true technique. Really, all your comments do is make you look entirely ignorant.

Movement that is not necessary is useless. A concise fencer will out play an overactive fencer any day. I can maintain my distance just fine without jumping around like a monkey.

I don't give a damn how good you look. If we were to fence, I'd stab you. Why? For the same reason a modern Ferrari will beat a Model-T in a drag race. It evolved. Guess what? That means you're dead.

Oh, and in case this was to civil and/or made too much sense, I encourage you to find yourself a nice big fire and die in it.

One of these days I will finish building a device that allows me to stab people in the face over the internet.

Why all the hostility? Is this not a sport for gentlemen? Apparently not. Telkanuru must be compensating for something with all of his misdirected insults. A true man of knowledge does not let insults speak for him but instead uses actions and knowledge to show that he is right. I do not need to call you names, or threaten you with violence (as you did to me) to say that you must be a very ignorant individual indeed. I feel sorry for you.

[HDG]

Oh, and in case this was to civil and/or made too much sense, I encourage you to find yourself a nice big fire and die in it.

One of these days I will finish building a device that allows me to stab people in the face over the internet.

Yeah, I also found this a bit across the line...

[Ormus]

Yeah, I also found this a bit across the line...

I don't like to compare one forum to the next...but in other online forums that I frequent he would already be banned for a comment like this against another member. No questions asked.

[keith]

I don't like to compare one forum to the next...but in other online forums that I frequent he would already be banned for a comment like this against another member. No questions asked.

then perhaps you should just shuffle off and troll somewhere else?

[RITFencing]

then perhaps you should just shuffle off and troll somewhere else?

Left attack is parried, right riposte arrives.

Ok, that's the bile out of my system. How about we get this thread closed down, please, call it even on all sides and just move on?

[Ormus]

then perhaps you should just shuffle off and troll somewhere else?

I like trolling here just fine. Hey, how about some intelligent discussion instead of just trying to insult me.

[Gav]

"I like trolling here just fine. Hey, how about some intelligent discussion instead of just trying to insult the sport?"

This thread has reached the point where I am seriously considering closing it.

[erooMynohtnA]

This is a common myth among modern fencers. If this were the case would duelists and fencers have employed it for hundreds of years. The freearm is held up at an angle for BALANCE. And if it tenses your shoulders it is because your mind is telling you that it is tensing your shoulders.

I fenced the first three years with my arm up. It doesn't provide balance. Arm down is the way to go.

I didn't say that they were never useful, the truth is that using them ALL the time is using poor tactic. A fully extended arm threatens the opponent and establishes priority over a bent arm. Come at me with bent arm and you will meet my stop hit right in your bib! After a couple of bouts we will see if you still think a bent arm is a good attack.

I don't think you'd be able to touch him, but that's beside the point. A bent arm can very quickly turn into a straight arm in, say, a 10th or 15th of a second. I don't think your stop hit is that fast. Especially if you're aiming for the bib. He'll have tagged you on the arm ages before.

Movement that is not necessary is useless. A concise fencer will out play an overactive fencer any day. I can maintain my distance just fine without jumping around like a monkey.

No, you can't. You might think you can. You might even be able to manage distance against a CF buddy. But really, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Why all the hostility? Is this not a sport for gentlemen?

Not since you showed up.

I don't like to compare one forum to the next...but in other online forums that I frequent he would already be banned for a comment like this against another member. No questions asked.

You're welcome to go back to the patty-cake fora if we're too naughty here.

[Phaeton]

Honour goes hand in hand with good sportsmanship and intelligence. The matter of honour as an ideal cannot be traced to any specific time period and especially not as late as the Victorian period. If any peiod were historically emblematic of honour it would be the Age of Chivalry. About 500 years prior to the Victorian period.

This comment is emblematic of not reading any history books. I'm sure the rape and mass murder committed by the honorable knights in Jerusalem, or anywhere in the middle east, was completely "honorable"

The idea of medieval honor was created and most celebrated by those who didn't live then. It's an ideal that was rarely upheld, but set up rules so people would only violate it so far. It kept people from fighting on the streets. "Honor" was an invention by fearful reactionaries and proud individuals who were looking for a worthy past.

Movement that is not necessary is useless. A concise fencer will out play an overactive fencer any day. I can maintain my distance just fine without jumping around like a monkey.

They aren't just hopping around. It's adjusting distance in a much finer fashion than is possible with steps. It's also easier to sneak in and out. There's a time and a place for bouncing, and it isn't always vital, but it makes a lot of sense. There's a difference between being mobile and needlessly moving. If distance is right, and people can easily and mobilly change direction with whatever their doing and aren't preparing for too long. Whatever they do is fine.

Why all the hostility? Is this not a sport for gentlemen? Apparently not. Telkanuru must be compensating for something with all of his misdirected insults. A true man of knowledge does not let insults speak for him but instead uses actions and knowledge to show that he is right. I do not need to call you names, or threaten you with violence (as you did to me) to say that you must be a very ignorant individual indeed. I feel sorry for you.

Telk may have gone out of line, but Telk is by no means an ignorant individual. It's a little bit frustrating to have random classical fencers show up and complain in a sport fencing forum.

You probably didn't deserve all the hostility in the thread. There's a lot of it. But you probably shouldn't have come in and made such an acidic post about something and not provide ANY evidence beyond your high and mighty proclamations.

Fencing evolves. Ideas that are popular now will change. That's why coaches always have to work with each other, interact, and tweak. It's just the nature of the sport. High level fencers aren't fencing in an old conventional way.

There are some that are cleaner than others Aldo Montano is probably my favorite sabre fencer because what he does is effective and looks clean. There's something to be said about a lack of clean technique in the states, and things may not be as pretty or good looking, but they work. We're fencing competitively and we are fencing to win. Get the points first. Get on the national team. Compete internationally. Win. Then being pretty is a small, unnecessary bonus that might just come along as well. Technique is vital, but not all good fencing is necesarily as "Clean" as other good fencing. It works. It's effective, but it's not "clean" in a pretty sense.

Oh well. That's the sport.

[Wafath]

...extended...

*twitch* *twitch* ...ing... *twitch*

Movement that is not necessary is useless. A concise fencer will out play an overactive fencer any day. I can maintain my distance just fine without jumping around like a monkey.

Ormus,

Take up USFA epee. It is the least subject to interpretation, so should be most applicable to your philosophy. Use your skills to dominate all of us and win nationals. (or get one of your students to do it for you.) Then proceed to tell us how everything we have done and taught is wrong.

But I, for one, no more care that fencing no longer is about ritual murder any more than I care that lacrosse isn't about pre-colonial north-American warfare. The modern variants of each are fun, safe, and interesting.

W

[RITFencing]

As far as the high arm position: it is useful for beginning fencers who have not learned good posture and shoulder position and do not correctly throw their back arm during the lunge. Once the fencer learns these things properly, this can be discarded, at least IMO.

As far as bent arm attacks: We don't do them all the time. Even in foil. However, if I were fencing someone (this is from an epeeist's point of view) who threw out a stop hit every time I came forward with a bent arm, I would counter time them to death. If you give any half decent fencer the same reaction to the same stimulus every time, they will beat you. In such a case (and I have used a strategy like this many times to great effectiveness), and indeed in all of fencing, something is only a mistake if you don't know you're doing it and/or you can't defeat the opponent's reaction.

One of the best pieces of fencing advice I ever got: There is no wrong thing to do in fencing. Only the wrong time to do something.

[Phaeton]

It is not wrong to physically assault a director or turn your back and run away. The timing is what's important.