Bad arbitres

[fencing teen]

Hi
I was recently at a tournement in Europe and I should've won most of the matches, but because of a stupid arbitre I lost them.
Anyone with the same experience?

[Arturo]

My coach always told me that you fence two people, the director and your opponent. The mark of a good competitor is one that can adjust his/her game to fit what the director is calling.
That is unless the director is inconsistent with his calling. In that case you can ask a member of the organizing comittee to supervise the director.

[fencing teen]

hi
Thank for the answer. I don't mind my opponent. In the last match that I had there were to other arbitres sitting wat5ching my game. They got up in the break and tried to talk to the one who was judging my match. It didn't help.

[floretje]

Hi Fencing Teen

A lot of people have that problem in Europe.
What Arturo said is true. You'll always have to fence two people.
And if the arbitre gives your opponent advice, you should inform the organisation about that. They'll give you another arbitre. I do have the same problem every tournament.



------------------
kus floretje

[darius]

There's a difference between a director who misses calls (all of them at some point), and a director who cheats.

Bad calls tend to even out over the course of the bout, unless the director consistently doesn't see an action...in that case, you should make your actions more obvious...

And even the worst director in the world can't argue with one light. (Although there's this guy from Stevens Tech...ehrm...never mind.)

Why is it that fencers never talk about *good* directors? Do they exist?

darius

[This message has been edited by darius (edited 12-07-2000).]

[fencingguy]

only in epee

[darius]

I don't know...they can get awfully political with those "floor" hits.

Which is why grounded strips are cool.

darius

[Gav]

I don't think the problem is confined to Europe guys. Judging by this thread we've all had bad decisions from presidents whether we have fenced in the US or Europe. And it's very true that you always fence 2 people. I for one gave up foil because I couldn't handle inconsistent judging from presidents. There IS nothing more soul destroying than stepping off the piste and having the spectators say they thought you should have won. Never mind all in the past.

Always remember that what you think what you might have done and what actually did could be different. The police don't necessarily trust one persons witness testimony - why should you?

Bottom line is if you are doing foil (or sabre or een epee for that matter). Never accept a presdent who is known to either party. If there isn't anyone available contact the directoire to have someone impartial appointed.

Oh yes, and Darius I know what you mean about cheating presidents. It cost a freind of mine a bronze medal.

[HilandDoug]

That's the tough thing about foil and sabre fencing: you need to make your actions perfectly clear to the referee, while hiding your intention from your opponent. Remember, you fence AGAINST your opponent, and FOR the referee (director, president, arbiter, etc.).

I just refereed at our state's Collegiate Invitational. Some said I did a great job (and at times I did), and some yelled during the bout (coaches) that I had missed an action (I'm aware of 2 I missed all day). The yelling came from a coach I prefer for lessons, who is the best referee in the state, who I not only asked to watch my refereeing, but who is also the guy I'll be taking the referee test from! A fencer competes with those in his pool, and those he faces in the DE's. A referee is a potential competitor with every fencer in the venue. It takes a lot of knowledge, confidence, and a thick skin. I'm not defending anyone, just putting in my 2 cents worth.

[MikeHarm]

Have a friend videotape your competions, then there can be no question of faulty memories or your perceptions after you run through the action in slowmotion.

Mike

[Wafath]

Originally posted by darius:
Why is it that fencers never talk about *good* directors? Do they exist?

Yes. The directors at Greensboro were very good, IMHO.

(It isn't so much that I agreed with every call, it is more that I didn't disagree with any of the calls.... That and they were very good at seeing the subtleties of the sabre bladeplay.)

[Stryder]

To complain about the referee is self defeating.
If the ref' didn't give you a touch it was because YOU did something that made him think you didn't have right of way.
Practice actions that ref's miss less often. Take less risks, and speak to your referee specifically about each call you didn't understand.
I was watching a bout that one of my students was fencing to get into the final eight at nationals in Austin last year.
The referee was Doug Findlay, from OH. By all accounts a good referee, one of the better ones. The bout was close and my student had fought back from behind to even it at 14-14.
My student did an attack that was designed to fool his opponent into thinking he was in prep'. His opponent attacked, and my student finished.
The ref called attack into prep'. Bout.
I ran up to the ref and asked him why, he was honest and said that while my student might have been moving forward, he seemed to have finished his action out of time. I moaned at him for a second but told him I respected him as a ref and it was a shame that my guy lost. He thought it over for about 2 minutes, and played it over in his mind, then it occurred to him why he had made the call.
The action my student did was designed to look like prep' he had hopped up and down a little bit as he began his attack and then finished. The up and down action caught the ref's attention as well as the opponent's, and when the action closed, the ref was left with the image of prep from one side, and a good attack on the other.

The moral of this (long) story is this.
My students action had fooled not only his opponent, but the referee too, into thinking it was preparation.

There is ALWAYS a reason for a bad call. That reason is almost always, under your control. Learn that, and you will find yourself complaining less about bad ref's, and hearing your victims complaining more.


[This message has been edited by Stryder (edited 12-09-2000).]

[neevel]

Stryder makes a very important point-- if you're playing a game that hinges on some very subtle or fast perceptions of right-of-way, you simply have to accept that it's going to be tougher for a referee to interpret correctly _and_ leave you a rather small margin of error in your execution. If you're in a close bout, you probably want to factor that in to your choice of strategy and tactics, and perhaps select another option that has less exposure to such risks.

-Dave Neevel

[MikeHarm]

Or you could just say to hell with the right of way and refs and go with Epee. :-)
I still like the foil game way better than Epee, but I think thats one of the major reasons people switch to it.

Mike