FencingTime Users take heed

[jjefferies]

First let me say that I'm an advocate of FencingTime. It's a very neat little package and I've been mostly pleased to use it at my home club and UCB. That understood, times and recent changes in USFA have resulted in the older version being dated. Most of what I'm wribbling about has already been covered in several different threads but I've recently barked my shins on these problems and wanted to high lite them for those like myself who don't put it all together.

1. The seeding algorithm is (hmmm) touchy. Which is to say that users must make sure they post any seedings for comment by fencers before using the program generated seedings. This is particularly true of smaller tournaments where the number of clubs represented is relatively few. My understanding is that the seeding works better the larger the group. MOST IMPORTANTLY regard the machine generated seeding as only a recommendation.

2. Recent USFA classifcation changes (specifically for A1 events) have resulted in FT giving wrong classification change notices.

3. The incorrect classification changes are carried over into the .frd files whch are uploaded to AskFred. So far hand modification of the .frd files has not worked for me.

And that's it. I understand that Dan Berke has promised an updated version to be released very soon to correct these short comings and we'll look forward to it. In the meantime if anyone can tell me how to correct the .frd files by hand in a manner acceptable to AskFred or how to modify the results once in AskFred please do.

[KD5MDK]

XSeed has the same problem with pool seedings, if you auto-resolve conflicts. I do not know how En Guarde handles is.

[dberke]

Hi everyone,

Jonathan's comments regarding Fencing Time are completely accurate, and I am in the process of addressing the issues he's mentioned. Specifically:

First, the pool seeding algorithm hasn't been changed since it was originally written in 2002. Over the years, it has shown its age and on occasion, generates some pretty lousy pools. As Jonathan mentioned, tournament organizers should always look over the pools to make sure they are reasonable. The "strength factor" that FT computes for each pool should help identify any pools that may be too weak/strong so that you can manually swap people if necessary.

With that said, the new version of FT (due out in November) has an entirely new algorithm for pool seeding and club conflict resolution. The new algorithm is VERY MUCH improved and should perform a lot better.

Second, the A1 events do still award ratings based on the old table. Fixing this may be tricky because it was hardcoded (stupid me!) I am looking into how easy it would be for me to release a new interim version that fixes the problem. In the meantime, please be aware that the ratings awarded will be incorrect for places 3-8. This too is fixed in the new version of FT, and the classification table is no longer hardcoded, so future updates will be easy to make.

Lastly, if you have an A1 results file that you want uploaded to AskFRED, I can fix it so that it awards the correct ratings. Send me the .frd file (info@fencingtime.com) and I'll have a fixed file back to you within 24 hours.

Feel free to PM me with any questions!
Dan

[MyrddinsPrecint]

XSeed has the same problem with pool seedings, if you auto-resolve conflicts. I do not know how En Guarde handles is.

En Garde generally doesn't have huge problems for separation of clubs, but it does often give the high seed the small pool, so that needs to be checked for.

[KD5MDK]

It's not that clubs aren't seperated for that's the problem. The problem is that when XSeed and Fencing Time resolve club conflicts, they distort the proper seeding of the pools (disrupt the zig-zag).

[Goldgar]

Lastly, if you have an A1 results file that you want uploaded to AskFRED, I can fix it so that it awards the correct ratings. Send me the .frd file (info@fencingtime.com) and I'll have a fixed file back to you within 24 hours.

Dan, I haven't looked at the format of the .frd file, but shouldn't it be easy to write a filter program to read a .frd file and write out a corrected one? Such a program could be posted somewhere for all to download and use until the new version of FT comes out. It seems to me that would be easier than you manually changing a bunch of files that are e-mailed to you.

[erik_blank]

I've brought this up before, but figured that I'd tilt at some more windmils here... Anyone know what happened to "Point Control"? I've tried going to it's web site, butthe site just doesn't exist anymore...

[dberke]

Dan, I haven't looked at the format of the .frd file, but shouldn't it be easy to write a filter program to read a .frd file and write out a corrected one? Such a program could be posted somewhere for all to download and use until the new version of FT comes out. It seems to me that would be easier than you manually changing a bunch of files that are e-mailed to you.

The ideal situation would be for AskFRED to correct the ratings when the file is uploaded. I'll mention the idea to Peet, since that would make it easiest for everyone. If he doesn't have time to add that feature, I see if I can whip out a quick fixit program like you suggested.

Dan

[peet]

The ideal situation would be for AskFRED to correct the ratings when the file is uploaded. I'll mention the idea to Peet, since that would make it easiest for everyone. If he doesn't have time to add that feature, I see if I can whip out a quick fixit program like you suggested.

Dan

Yeah, i'll be looking into having FRED double-check earned ratings like he validates other uploaded info. I haven't had a chance to get too far into that due to being out of the country.

In fact, I'm posting this from SFO while waiting for my connecting flight home using my cool new iPhone!

-p

[davesaint]

It's not that clubs aren't seperated for that's the problem. The problem is that when XSeed and Fencing Time resolve club conflicts, they distort the proper seeding of the pools (disrupt the zig-zag).

Actually what you can do to fix that in fencing time is to uncheck the box for team-mate order when you select view all pools before generating accepting the pools. Works like a charm.


Dave

[edew]

Yeah, i'll be looking into having FRED double-check earned ratings like he validates other uploaded info. I haven't had a chance to get too far into that due to being out of the country.

In fact, I'm posting this from SFO while waiting for my connecting flight home using my cool new iPhone!

-p

Hey, when can we get FencingTime working on an iPhone. Together with a ScorePad type scorekeeping app.

[peet]

Fixed:


Ok, FRED now should correct earned ratings in results uploaded from Fencing Time. Here's how it works:

FRED takes the event classification that Fencing Time applied to the event and then records the earned ratings that he thinks are correct for that event classification. FRED does not attempt to recalculate the event classification*.

It's important that FRED believes FT about the event classification so that the user can tell FT when the event should be different from the calculated classification, such as in the case of a non-sanctioned event.

NOTE to tournament organizers:
Due to its urgent nature, this feature went into production with a bit less testing than I usually like. As such, the next few times you upload results from Fencing Time please look over the earned ratings in the confirmation screen carefully and let me know if anything looks awry.

Thanks everyone!

-p

[edit]
* Note that no recalculation of the event classification should be necessary, since the USFA did not change that part of the classification chart. I just wanted to be clear about how FRED works.
[/edit]

[Goldgar]

Ok, FRED now should correct earned ratings in results uploaded from Fencing Time.

Great work! Thanks.

[peet]

Hey, when can we get FencingTime working on an iPhone. Together with a ScorePad type scorekeeping app.

I dunno about Fencing Time, but a scorepad app should be possible with the web2.0 type apps that Apple is allowing onto the phone. What features would it want to have?

-p

(Not that I've got tons of time to do such a thing; i'm already behind on my summer FRED todo list, but it's still fun to contemplate )

[edew]

I dunno about Fencing Time, but a scorepad app should be possible with the web2.0 type apps that Apple is allowing onto the phone. What features would it want to have?

-p

(Not that I've got tons of time to do such a thing; i'm already behind on my summer FRED todo list, but it's still fun to contemplate )

Standard scorepad or palmfencer interface. Variable clock (not just 1, 3, 5, 10 minutes and allow the clock to run even when the device is shut off). If you use the pool formats like PalmFencer, then it should all those features (if you need to see it, I can show you when we meet in the future) and one more: show the time when in scoring mode and show the score when in timing mode (or have some alpha overlay of the time over the scorepad or vice-versa).

[dberke]

Although I haven't made this public yet (although I guess I am now), I've reweritten PocketFencingTime, which was a scorepad app that I orginally developed in 2002 for the PocketPC. I've updated the app to run on modern Windows Mobile 5 (and later) devices, and I've even added the ability to send pools from the desktop version of Fencing Time to the PDA and back (with scores!)

I'll be looking for beta testers for the new app in the next month or so, so if you have a WM5 device and are interested, let me know.

Also, if someone has considered writing a scorepad app for the iPhone, Palm, etc., getting it to work with the deskop version of Fencing Time wouldn't be too hard... contact me if you're interested in trying to get that working.

Dan

[peet]

Also, if someone has considered writing a scorepad app for the iPhone, Palm, etc., getting it to work with the deskop version of Fencing Time wouldn't be too hard... contact me if you're interested in trying to get that working.

Unfortunately, a scoresheet app for the iPhone will have a hard time talking to Fencing Time, because Apple has chosen to allow only web apps on the phone. This basically means that the application isn't really on the phone, and so can't make use of its lower level network facilities. The most a custom app can do outside the web browser on an iPhone is initiate a phone call, fire up an email, and bring up a google map location.

Unless you want to get into hacking the phone, as some have done...

-p


[edit]
Hey Wait:
Actually.......

If you had a wifi network in the venue, and ran a web based scorepad app on the local network alongside Fencing Time, then FT and the app could talk to each other, and the iPhone could hit the web app directly over the wifi, just as if it were on the web.

hmmm.....
[/edit]

[KD5MDK]

Exactly. Or just have fencing time have a web frontend (also accesible via laptop, if the tournament has some folks to serve as scorekeepers) and a little lightweight webserver built in.

[peet]

Exactly. Or just have fencing time have a web frontend (also accesible via laptop, if the tournament has some folks to serve as scorekeepers) and a little lightweight webserver built in.

tomayto = tomahto

[DJ Apostrophe]

Although I haven't made this public yet (although I guess I am now), I've reweritten PocketFencingTime, which was a scorepad app that I orginally developed in 2002 for the PocketPC. I've updated the app to run on modern Windows Mobile 5 (and later) devices, and I've even added the ability to send pools from the desktop version of Fencing Time to the PDA and back (with scores!)

I'll be looking for beta testers for the new app in the next month or so, so if you have a WM5 device and are interested, let me know.

Also, if someone has considered writing a scorepad app for the iPhone, Palm, etc., getting it to work with the deskop version of Fencing Time wouldn't be too hard... contact me if you're interested in trying to get that working.

Dan

Dan,

I'm VERY interested in giving this a shot...

I've gotta ask, how are you doing the data transfer? Active sync? Bluetooth?

I've contemplated doing something similar for years (I work as a software programmer and our stuff runs on WM devices (namely, HP iPAQs)), but have never had the time.

Shoot me an email when you get a chance.

-w