Foil OFF TARGET

[jjefferies]

Hello,
I've got some foils (2) that I've been trying to repair for the Cal club. Using a static testbox they appear to be working. But under use with a scoring machine they will indicate off target if beat or tapped.

I've checked the springs with 500g weight. I've cleaned off the electrical studs inside the tips, checked the wires for possible grounding.

Any suggestions as to what to look for that might be causing this sort of problem other than the fact that I'm an epeeist and these are foils.

thanks

[bobb121]

What did you clean the tip out with? It sounds like the tip might still be dirty to me? Also how old are the tip parts?

[jjefferies]

What did you clean the tip out with? It sounds like the tip might still be dirty to me? Also how old are the tip parts?

There is no way to know how old the parts are. This is a university club and they could be brand new or several years old. Just looking at the tips they did not appear to be too old or corroded. I spoke of cleaning any corrosion (didn't know for sure that was the problem. just tried it) and that was on the metal contact that comes through the plastic insert that the wire is connected to in the tip.

The tips were blown out with dry canned air.

[Purple Fencer]

It's possible there's a break in the wire at the base of the cup that only shows ip when the blade's being whacked around ('cause it moves the tip and barrel)

To find out...hook the weapon to the box....take out teh tip....insert a jewelers screwdriver and put the tip against the cap of the wire...lean the shaft of the screwdriver against the barrel....you have now completed the circuit, just as if the tip was installed.

You should have a good b/c light on the box. Run the screwdriver around the inside of the barrel, making sure there in constant contact between the tip of the screwdriver and the barrel....if the light flickers while you;re moving it around, there's a break in the wire....rewire time.

[bobb121]

To clean the tips take some isopropell alcohol and some q-tips and use that to clean the inside. Repeat until the q-tips come out white.

[SJCFU#2]

Hopefully this is stating the obvious, but make sure that everything was tight (especially the barrel and pommel). I've also seen intermittent white lights caused by a loose fit between the body cord pins and socket (particularly difficult to isolate because everything will work perfectly well on its own, they just don't work together very well).

You may also consider using a tester with a micro-break sensor, such as the Favero Tester A-1. They tend to be more sensitive than the machines at finding intermittent breaks.

[brtech]

Probably, the answer is in all the excellent advice above.
When I get this problem, I do start with a Favero tester, because it does show the problem before any other testing method would. I always start with MY cord, because I know it's good (I test it before I start doing anything).

The first place I go is the loose barrel. The second place I go is to twist the tip in the barrel and see if the intensity of the red light changes. If it does, dirty tip. Then I try bending the top of the blade, holding the barrel, but not the tip, looking for a broken wire. If that's not it, and wacking the blade causes a yellow flash, I look for the loose wire on the 2 prong socket.

If that's not it, then I take the tip off and look for mashed tip problems. I look down the barrel checking for mashed cup, contact sitting correctly in the bottom of the barrel.

I find it pretty hard to hold the screwdriver on the contact and maintain a connection to the barrel while bending the blade, YMMV, but I'll try. If I still have a problem, I try a new tip.

Then I switch to his cord, first making sure the cord works, then looking for cord to socket intermittent.

If that's not it, I do one more thing: I take the wire off the socket, scrape it clean, tug on it a little, and try again.

If after all of that, it's still intermittent, rewire.

[KD5MDK]

I made an extensive post on what can cause foil white lights once on here, and the summary is "nearly anything", as there are so many places for a break in the circuit to occur.

[fencerbill]

To clean the tips take some isopropell alcohol and some q-tips and use that to clean the inside. Repeat until the q-tips come out white.

When I was still fencing Epee, I would carry along a 69 cent bottle of CVS finger nail polish remover and some Q-tips. From the travel/sample aisle. Then just throw it away before coming home.

[wbowman]

In addition to all the above suggestions, there's also the possibility that there's some corrosion in the body cord socket (if these are two-pin connectors), especially if the weapons have been sitting around for a while.
Try rolling up some emery cloth small enough to fit into the socket holes and reaming them out a little bit.

[Warrior Princess]

To clean the tips take some isopropell alcohol and some q-tips and use that to clean the inside. Repeat until the q-tips come out white.

I also like to steel the disposible mascara aplicators from makeup counters. They work REALLY well, and you don't have to carry around a bunch of them.
Like this one.

http://www.shopcortiva.com/images/product/5091.jpg

[Barry Paul]

If its an old Leon Paul point change the screws and or clean the part of the top which touches the screws.

[fencerbill]

I also like to steel the disposible mascara aplicators from makeup counters. They work REALLY well, and you don't have to carry around a bunch of them.
Like this one.

http://www.shopcortiva.com/images/product/5091.jpg

Don't hold your breath waiting around to catch me at a makeup counter.

Well!

[Joe biebel]

A lot of good advice so far. All of the things mentioned can cause the off-target. It seems modern machines (microprocessors) even the ones that won't score a "dead on thrust" that bounces, will pick up off target lights on foils that seem in pretty good condition. I'm pretty sure the culprit is a combination of things, all adding to resistance.

Assuming that the problem with your foils is in the tip, there are few areas that are difficult and seldom thought of to clean. When I say clean, I mean get rid of the dirt, glue and the hard one, corrosion. There can be corrosion on any and all connecting surfaces in a foil point.

If you take all of the parts out of the tip (assuming you have a conventional foil point) you have as many as 6 contact areas that can cause or contribute to resistance. This is how a perfectly good foil can "go bad" just sitting in a bag waiting to be used.

Starting with the contact inside the plastic cup. Take a tip spring and "screw it" onto the end of a Q-tip shaft. You can then "chuck this into a dremel tool or drill motor, and Carefully polish the contact.

Next, take the tip spring and polish the "seating surfaces" with a fine sand paper.

You can use your dremel or drill again or the sand paper to polish the tip contact on the end that meets the spring.

The other side of the contact needs to be polished as well. For this, very fine sandpaper and some patience will work nicely. I happen to have a very small dremel wire brush that can get at these. This contact is easy to do on the LP design as there is no secondary contact, however, I believe it is made of stainless steel and should not need polishing. If you are doing several of these tips you can chuck the tip into a drill upside down and spin the contact against the sandpaper.

Next, you either have screws (Leon Paul Design) or another contact. If it's Leon Paul, you will want to examine the screws and replace if worn. I believe it is important to replace the screws in pairs so that both screws make contact as much as possible with the contact flange. If it's the "French" style point with a (brass??) contact, you again need to get in there with some fine sandpaper.

Last, clean the parts with a Q-tip with a clear (perhaps sewing machine) type oil, very sparingly. This will slow down future corrosion and if it is applied sparingly, will minimize the dirt magnet effect. Put it back together. Clean the outside with alchohol and a rag so your tape will stick, and you should be ready to go. VRRROOOOOM!

[Joe biebel]

I use the LP design and I don't recommend this trick for that design. If you use the brass collar system (French style) the most difficult contact to polish is the two surfaces between the collar and the spring contact. When I used this type of tip, I would "chuck" the assembled point, by the tip, into a drill motor, and spin the tip (pulling slightly) to polish the two surfaces against each other. This gets rid of corrosion and allows tham to "seat" well against each other. You will want to take the point apart and clean after this, with an oily Q-tip. Danger, Danger, Danger, Will Robinson!! Getting carried away with this (pulling to hard) can melt (friction) any plastics in you tip.

[tbryan]

In addition to all the above suggestions, there's also the possibility that there's some corrosion in the body cord socket

One final 2-prong socket problem I've had...make sure that the nuts on the back of the socket are tight. Somehow, one of my sockets came a bit loose. I tend to tighten them down only when I'm first wiring them. I had one weapon that was getting intermittent off targets with multiple body cords. I finally realized that one of the sockets was just loose enough that the socket housing itself would shift forward and back a bit while I was fencing, and the wire was losing contact as the socket moved. The symptoms are similar to a bad body cord while fencing, but the problem persists with body cords known to be good. Since the socket never moved while I was testing, it always passed fine with the test box.

[bobb121]

isopropell alcohol will not melt any plastic parts!! What melts the parts is acetone wich is found in denatured alcohol.

[oiuyt]

isopropell alcohol will not melt any plastic parts!! What melts the parts is acetone wich is found in denatured alcohol.

No, what melts plastic parts is my candle. :)

-B

[Chevalier15]

Have you tried rotating the tip? Because when my foil says it's off target that usually works.

[Purple Fencer]

Have you tried rotating the tip? Because when my foil says it's off target that usually works.

That does break off corrosion that may be on the ends of the springs, the wire cap, or the base of teh flange.....but it DOES have the risk of rotating the cup and breaking the wire.

It's OK in a pinch (like in teh middle of a bout), but if you want to get rid of any corrosion, it's better to take the tip apart and use sandpaper or the deburring wheel of a bench grinder (for the spring) and a length of small brass piping (for the wire cap)