Foil:Covering target w/off hand at on-guard

[NSXER]

Is there any rule that prohibits a fencer from having their off hand covering when coming on guard and then carrying it in front of the target torso while fencing?

Obviously if an off-target touch registers with a covering action the touch is awarded but I'm talking about covering valid target while just fencing.....

Thanks!

[noodle]

if you are within fencing distance/tempo and covering target, you get a card.

it doesn't matter if you get hit on the area you're covering target with. you're preventing someone from even aiming at that target by covering it, hence, doing something illegal.

[KD5MDK]

If the fencer covers valid target during the action while in scoring distance of their opponent, a Group 1 penalty is applied.

[jbenjamin]

really??? i didn't know that this certain rule has restrictions.... i was fencing at a tournament and my opponent was complaining that I was covering valid target area-on the engarde line... i dont know what the judge said to him, but after, 2 hand-judges were asked to keep an eye on me and on him.

[oiuyt]

The rule is against protecting the target area or substituting another part of the body for target area.

If one is too far away for the target to be threatened, then having, for example, the off-hand in front of one's chest is in no way protective or substitutive. Once the distance gets to the point where the target is threatened, the covering must have ceased.

-B

[Black Jeebus]

I don't think coming en garde would net you a card, as long as you remove the offending hand before getting near to the opponent.

You could sort of cover while out of distance so that even if you remove your hand the moment you get in distance your opponent has the lingering thought that your hand is covering. However, I imagine most ref's would be highly suspicious of this tactic and likely to award a card/point upon complaint of your opponent. Not to mention the high likelihood of you actually violating the rules.

[Black Jeebus]

Just as an aside-
Have you ever seen someone carded for covering target while pulling a chicken wing with their off weapon arm? I usually tell newbies that folding their off-weapon arm behind their back is illegal since it covers target (this is usually just to prevent the ones who tell me it doesn't impede their balance from doing it).

[mrbiggs]

Just as an aside-
Have you ever seen someone carded for covering target while pulling a chicken wing with their off weapon arm? I usually tell newbies that folding their off-weapon arm behind their back is illegal since it covers target (this is usually just to prevent the ones who tell me it doesn't impede their balance from doing it).

Behind their back should be fine.



And to back everyone else up, you should never be in distance while en guard, so no, you can't be covering there. Take a step forward, however, and you might be.

[Inquartata]

Behind their back should be fine.

Or they could fence sabre and not have to worry about it.

And to back everyone else up, you should never be in distance while en guard, so no, you can't be covering there. Take a step forward, however, and you might be.

You know, this has got me thinking, because the foilists at my club ALWAYS seem to come on guard in distance for practice bouts. We set up two parallel strips, and we sabre fencers carefully pace off the proper distances and set water bottles down as guard-line markers. I watch the foilists, and they are always starting from at least a foot farther in than the water bottles. Each.

I know that foil tends not to start as explosively as sabre is wont to do, but in competition there will be marked guard lines and they will have to use them, and it can't be good to train otherwise.

[p1nkp4nther]

Sorry to be off topic, but I have to say that I agree regarding the engarde distance. Our foil fencers also start too close which really iritates me as a sabreur (I appreciate the value of the 4 m). Then when newbies fence sabre against us sabreurs it is always first a big issue to explain that you simply cannot start that close together. Well after a few bruises they get it ... ;D

[KD5MDK]

Behind their back should be fine.

It is quite possible to cover target with your arm behind your back. The back is valid target area, and often even targeted in foil.

[noodle]

Just as an aside-
Have you ever seen someone carded for covering target while pulling a chicken wing with their off weapon arm? I usually tell newbies that folding their off-weapon arm behind their back is illegal since it covers target (this is usually just to prevent the ones who tell me it doesn't impede their balance from doing it).

pulling a "chicken wing" does cover target, and it hides your hand. i've told people to stop doing similar, not because it covered target, but because i couldn't see if they were touching their equipment (alligator clip, cord/reel connection).

[lemon__fresh]

Just as an aside-
Have you ever seen someone carded for covering target while pulling a chicken wing with their off weapon arm? I usually tell newbies that folding their off-weapon arm behind their back is illegal since it covers target (this is usually just to prevent the ones who tell me it doesn't impede their balance from doing it).

I dont understand why some newbies want to do this even after careful explanation of why not to. Does it make them feel like they look cool or something?

[erik_blank]

I dont understand why some newbies want to do this even after careful explanation of why not to. Does it make them feel like they look cool or something?

Most of the kids that I teach end up doing this in an effort to keep from pulling their hand in front of themselves and thus guaranteeing a card.
I don't like it, but I have often resulted to geting them to hold onto their groin strap or reel wire just to help keep them from reacting either in a reflexive huddle or even violently when their opponents weapon gets close. (I teach a lot of College kids that have previous martial arts experience and have almost been punched by their off hand a number of times as they closed distance durring an attack. Reflex/Muscle Memory is just SWELL! )
After a few weeks I try to ween them off this crutch, but I usually end up at the end of the semester with one or two peole that just can't fence any other way without the reflexive huddle or that swinging arm. Even worse if these people first started out with SCA fencers. That off Hand will ALWAYS come forward the first few months.

[oso97]

Sorry to be off topic, but I have to say that I agree regarding the engarde distance. Our foil fencers also start too close which really iritates me as a sabreur (I appreciate the value of the 4 m). Then when newbies fence sabre against us sabreurs it is always first a big issue to explain that you simply cannot start that close together. Well after a few bruises they get it ... ;D

Somewhat humorous addition to this point.

Last season myself and a couple of my students traveled to a tournament down in a neighboring division, run by a club that has a ... less than stellar reputation for hosting high quality tournaments. Okay, so, we knew what we were in for, but we had our reasons for attending. Women's sabre was the second event of the day on Saturday, so we arrived mid morning, after the Men's Epee event had started. I warmed up the girls, gave them each a lesson and then they were going to fence a bit to complete the getting ready process. They both come to the guard lines of an empty strip, and I'm standing there ready to referee. However, instead of coming on guard, they both take off their masks and look at me, with that look of frustration that only women and girls older than 14 can give, as if I should know what is wrong and fix it instantly.

Turns out the guard lines had an extra METER between them. And there was an extra additional meter between the guard line and warning line. Silly epeeists had been fencing for almost 2 hours on the strips and not one of them had noticed, but the first sabre fencers to step up caught it without even having to fence a single touch.

[Bryn Ralph]

The logic prevails in all three weapons: 'tis prudent to check the measurments of the piste prior to tournament action.

Amazing.

[KD5MDK]

oso, I have that happen to me fencing Beau Bruson at the Rose Condon. We were on sectional metal strips. He and I lined up, first action "advance advance lunge" simul. We both look at each other "That took too long", look down and notice there is an extra section in between the on guard lines and he has nearly no distance between on guard line and warning line.

[Goldgar]

I don't like it, but I have often resulted to geting them to hold onto their groin strap or reel wire

Don't use the reel wire. The fencer may not touch the electrical equipment while fencing.

[mrbiggs]

It is quite possible to cover target with your arm behind your back. The back is valid target area, and often even targeted in foil.

It's possible, but it's not something novice fencers are usually going to encounter.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

I've gotta second that the hand behind the back DOES cover target area. Also, big, long braids cover target area. And who knows a good way to stop fencers from bringing their hands forward and cowering when they're being attacked? The only place I have ever drawn blood on an opponent is the off hand...always when it's residing on their shoulder. When they put their hand on their chest, I usually reflexively stop my attack and don't hit them.

By the way...if someone is covering in a competition, and you ask for and receive hand judges, you've as good as won that bout. NO ONE handles that well...