What is you club's travel policy?

[Phincer]

I'm curious about how other clubs handle fencers that are mature teens (15-18) traveling "alone". Is it allowed? Does the coach stay in the same hotel and supervise or are they on their own? As a parent, I think any teen under the age of 18, no matter how mature and responsible, should be accountable to either a coach or another family. Teens might be able to travel on their own easily in Europe, but I don't think the US is the place to do it.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts and input.

[Allen Evans]

Below is a policy I helped write for a large club a number of years ago. I actually took much of this from the Northern Colorado Fencer's Club policy at that time, with some modifications.

Almost any large High School or Junior High will have written policies for underage students traveling in a group. It's a good source for ideas to deal with current travel issues.

What makes Europe safer to travel in (alone) than the US if you are under the age of 18?

AE

Junior Fencers traveling away from home without parents.

We expect our young athletes to understand that they are representing (the club) from the moment their parents drop them off at the airport, until the moment they are picked up by their parents. During that time we expect them to behave appropriately, and treat not only their teammates, and coaches with respect, but all others that they encounter during travel, such as flight attendants, fellow competitors and their coaches, hotel staff, and event staff.

1. We urge all parents, when possible, to travel with their children. (club) does not assume responsibility for your children while traveling with or to an event that (club) is a part of. You will be asked to sign a waiver to that effect. In addition to safety, National events can be very stressful on young athletes, and the child needs the emotional support of a parent at these times.

2. Events often occur during the scholastic season. We urge young fencers to bring homework to do while on the plane or at the hotel.

3. Fencers unaccompanied by a parent must stay on hotel or venue property at all times. They cannot leave the venue or hotel property without a coach or adult team member.

4. Room assignments will be made before debarking on the trip. These room assignments cannot be changed.

5. We expect young fencers to treat all employees and guests of the hotel with respect. We expect them to refrain from damage or theft of hotel property, including towels and "souvenirs".

6. Students must follow all curfews set by the coaches. Meeting curfew means being in your room at the appointed time: not in a teammates room, or on the way to your room. Repeated curfew violations will impact future trips with (club). In severe or repeated violations of curfew, the student will be sent home at the parents expense.

7. The (club) often eats as a large group. Many restaurants charge an automatic gratuity for large groups as part of the meal. Make sure that your child has enough money to cover this added expense. We do try to make arrangements to eat "on the cheap" when possible, but it is often difficult to control expenses on the road.

8. At all times your child represents (the club). Any behavior that impinges on that reputation (under age drinking, horseplay at the venue, disrespect to officials, competitors, or coaches) will result in the child being withdrawn from any events and sent home on the next flight. The parent will be billed for any of these additional expenses due to the behavior of their child. Any Junior who suffers this punishment will be on probation for participation in any other (club) trips.

9. The (club) has a zero tolerance policy with regards to underage consumption of alcoholic beverages or substances that are not proscribed by a physician. Any Junior caught in violation of this will be immediately sent home at the parent's expense and banned from participating in any future (club) trips without a parent traveling with the child.


We do not feel that these policies are unreasonable, and we urge all parents to review them with their children before sending them on (club) trips. It is the responsibility of the parents and athletes to know these policys.

[irishfolker]

Looks like a good policy, but in number 9 the word should be prescribed, not proscribed. Opposite meaning.

[Phincer]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

What makes Europe safer to travel in (alone) than the US if you are under the age of 18?

I like your club policy. I asked this question specifically because our club does not have a policy, and at least one under-age (15) fencer regularly travels alone. Checks into hotels, gets taxis, flies, etc. I feel that as long as one kid is doing it, we should have a policy. While Fencer A may do it, handle the responsiblity and be fine, Fencer B may try it, get into trouble and there goes a lawsuit if we don't have a policy in place to protect the club and the coach.

To answer your question, I think the murder rate is a little lower than in the US. Kids in Europe are more independent at an earlier age and perhaps a little more street-wise.

And I thought there was a minimum age of 18 to check into a hotel by yourself. Anyone got the real skinny on that?

[Peach]

Originally Posted by Phincer

I think the murder rate is a little lower than in the US.

The murder rate in the US is very low--it's inflated by media focus and skewed by the numbers in some urban centers. And "Europe" is a pretty large set of different countries incorporating a number of cities, further complicated by language difference. Some countries have hosts of people waiting to fleece ignorant visitors, while others are welcoming, supportive, and safe. On the whole, I would be much less inclined to send a kid on his or her own to Europe than to, say, Austin.

Besides, murder is not the problem. Murder, as I've said, is rare. I sent my own daughter with a teammate on their own to fly to California for a national tournament (joining the coach and club members who were already there) when she was fifteen. On the way out, their plane was so delayed they were given vouchers to stay overnight in a hotel in their connecting city ("We talked to a really nice sailor in the elevator, Mom") and they made it to the tournament, in Oakland, barely in time to check in the next morning. On the way back, they got separated in the connecting airport and my daughter didn't hear the gate change announcement, so her teammate got off the plane we were waiting for and she didn't, and the teammate had no idea what happened to my daughter. This was ten years ago so she didn't have a cell phone to call me and keep me from freaking out all over the place, and the airlines won't tell you ANYthing.

[jfarmer]

One thing that I would point out is that item #1., was written, is probably not going to fly today. What our church youth programs learned from consulting with lawyers is that such a waiver really doesn't help. The parents need to agree to the adult leaders of the group having some authority and responsibility for the young people. This is required for both travel and medical issues as well as behavior issues. (Hospitals require that proof be provided for legal and financial responsibility before treatment except in the most life-threatening cases...)

But you should have a waiver in there. But it has to be backed up with clear statements of who is responsible for the young person during the travel and the events.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

[Allen Evans]

All good points (even the spelling correction). As I said, this was written a number of years ago, but should give some idea of the scope of things we were looking at at the time.

When I grew up, High Schools didn't send kids on trips....now it seems High Schools are sending kids all over the place, so I'll repeat myself: many schools are going to have policys for students on band trips, overnight team trips, and so forth, and I would bet that they would be a great source of current material.

AE

[Allen Evans]

....and it would be a very good idea -- once you have something written -- to run it by the club attorney.

AE

[dcmdale]

I would really discourage any club from taking responsibility for underage fencers. Policy, waiver, or no, you are taking on a huge potential liability that you aren't being compensated for. I know that it is fairly routine in some clubs for juniors to travel with the club. I also know that there have been a couple of serious incidents. I don't have inside information, but I know that one of them likely cost *somebody* $100K+ (and the hotel likely is going to sue everybody). Teenage kids do what teenage kids do and if you are putting them together in rooms (as you probably need to do to avoid other types of liability), the good kids tend to rub off less on the rambunctious ones than vise versa.

Were I running a club, the official policy would be that parents are responsible for all travel arrangements and that they are strongly urged to accompany their child. If they do not, it is at their own risk. If they choose to send the child alone, they should let you know and, if the child has a problem, you will help if you can, but they should not count on your ability to do so. If parents want to trade off traveling with other parents, you don't object, but that is between the families.

My concern with the policy that Allen quotes is that while it is trying to protect the club, it also formalizes a relationship with the club that could be turned around by an attorney for an injured third party to create liability for the club.

Personal opinion: coaches have enough to do at events without having to babysit.

[Phincer]

Originally Posted by dcmdale

.......My concern with the policy that Allen quotes is that while it is trying to protect the club, it also formalizes a relationship with the club that could be turned around by an attorney for an injured third party to create liability for the club.

Personal opinion: coaches have enough to do at events without having to babysit.

Okay, that makes even MORE sense. I just wish some of these kids would travel with someone.

I love this board.

[Allen Evans]

I love it when it works....which it seems to be doing in this case. Good advice dcmdale.

AE

[NNR]

Our club does not organize travel/hotels nor do the coaches take responsibility for traveling students. When my daughter started to balk at having a parent with her, we found another family at the club that had a similar style and whose child we liked very much and started to take turns sending one parent with both kids. The kid without the parent felt they were traveling "alone", but in reality, had a parent along. This worked really well both domestically and internationally (although the national coaches/USFA do alot of organizing for designated tournaments). Now, the kids are 17 and 18 and often still travel together, occasionally with a parent, but often alone. They both meet their coaches at the competitions but I would NEVER use the coach as a security measure for my child.

[hpfencing]

Originally Posted by jfarmer

The parents need to agree to the adult leaders of the group having some authority and responsibility for the young people. This is required for both travel and medical issues as well as behavior issues.
But you should have a waiver in there. But it has to be backed up with clear statements of who is responsible for the young person during the travel and the events.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

Agreed. If we have youth traveling with the team we only let them go if another parent or adult is willing to take them on, we are comfortable and trust the student, they are 16 or older, we have written agreements and HIPPA forms and no gutt feelings about problem witht he youth.

Parents should goto tournaments and be there as support and help for therir kids and their team!

[Fencing Mom]

The curse of fencing is that it is an individual sport – not a team sport. The even better blessing of fencing is that it is an individual sport – not a team sport. It’s been a few years since my kid was a teen, but back then we also grappled with the traveling alone problem. I don’t know about the clubs mentioned in this thread, but for us and, I suspect, for the majority of fencers, our fencing club was never a real “team,” or even a coherent group like a school band or French club. The club was a group of individuals of different ages, different skill and interest levels, and different financial means. Who went to a tournament was an individual choice, and so the travel arrangements were also individually made. I had friendships with other fencing parents and so we did help each other out in traveling together and looking after each other’s kids. But the bottom line was this – I was responsible for my kid – no coach, no club, no tournament organizers.

Now here’s the interesting part, the decision to let my kid travel alone or with another fencer really wasn’t all that difficult. When you know your kid, you can see when it is time. I think fencers mature earlier than team athletes. There’s no teammate to blame when a fencer looses. There’s no equipment manager to clean tips and rewire. Being responsible for your own skills, behavior, and stuff is built into the sport.

Finally, I can’t stop myself from commenting on this:

Originally Posted by hpfencing

Parents should goto tournaments and be there as support and help for therir kids and their team!

Yeah, you’re right, but parents should also make enough money to easily buy two round-trip tickets to a tournament on the other side of the country. And parents should be able to take off work whenever they choose to accompany their kids. And parents should have another family member ready and willing to watch other kids at home. Until that is true of every fencing parent, I think this board better serves parents by discussing how to make the best of their situations so they can be supportive parents, rather than telling them to just do it.

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by Fencing Mom

Yeah, you’re right, but parents should also make enough money to easily buy two round-trip tickets to a tournament on the other side of the country. And parents should be able to take off work whenever they choose to accompany their kids. And parents should have another family member ready and willing to watch other kids at home. Until that is true of every fencing parent, I think this board better serves parents by discussing how to make the best of their situations so they can be supportive parents, rather than telling them to just do it.

Money is, of course, a huge issue and, I think, underlies this whole discussion. For all of my concerns about the practice, we ourselves have occasionally engaged in kid swapping kinds of arrangements. As we all know, this can be a very expensive sport.

On the other hand, club owners, coaches, and parents often accept very significant risk without thinking much about it. "These are good kids. If something goes wrong, I'll call their parents and make them go home early." Without getting into the details of some of the things that have happened at national events, some of the things that *have* gone wrong with unattended kids traveling with teams (some of which, I believe, have shown up on f.net) should be instructive about what can go wrong--a waiver won't help you much if the damages are for more than the kid's parents can pay.