Insurance Questions

[ysbadadden]

I'm sure this has been asked and answered many times before, but --

I. If my club has USFA insurance, and
a) non-club members
b) non-USFA members
c) non- USFA and non-club members

are fencing at our club, does the USFA liability insurance cover them?

II. If someone wants to see the answer in writing, where do I direct them?

Thanks

[Nmfencer]

The US Fencing website has an FAQ section with all the information about insurance inside. Here's the link directly to the insurance FAQ section.

Hope I helped!

http://www.usfencing.org/usfa/content/view/2101/137/

[qatet]

For the record, there is a panel at Coaches College where we can ask questions about the USFA insurance. If anybody has questions that they'd like to have answered, post them here and I'll try to remember to ask them next session. No guarantees, since I'm only checking f.net sporadically, but I'll try.

[Guymelef]

Other factors include:
1. Are you a sole proprietorship or are you under a sports or activities umbrella like a college or community center?

2. Is there always a recognized coach or trusted, senior student on hand?

3. Are all participants aware that they fence at their own personal risk and that even a full fencing kit does not guarantee protection from injury?

Best of luck, and stay safe.

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by qatet

For the record, there is a panel at Coaches College where we can ask questions about the USFA insurance. If anybody has questions that they'd like to have answered, post them here and I'll try to remember to ask them next session. No guarantees, since I'm only checking f.net sporadically, but I'll try.

Here's one. Is it possible to obtain a copy of the physical policy? If so, who should be contacted? Apparently our club owner has tried to obtain a copy and has not had any success. I participate in other (non-fencing) sports/hobbies in which the owner of the venue insists on having a copy of the insurance policy before they allow activities to occur on their property. This does not seem like an unreasonable request. Can you point me at someone that can help with this?

[ysbadadden]

Originally Posted by Nmfencer

The US Fencing website has an FAQ section with all the information about insurance inside. Here's the link directly to the insurance FAQ section.

Hope I helped!

http://www.usfencing.org/usfa/content/view/2101/137/

Thanks for the link!
Still, I'm confused by statements in the FAQ that seem to conflict with each other.
On the one hand--
"• [b]What are the covered activities? Covered activities include approved and/or sanctioned events, organized and supervised practices held in conjunction with approved and/or sanctioned events, any member or organization’s activities that are either directly or indirectly related to U.S. Fencing’s operation." and later, "Essentially, coverage applies to fencing and related ancillary activities of the club. "

Compare with this:
"• If a student is injured in my USFA member club during an individual lesson while wearing proper attire or not, am I covered? The club activity must be sanctioned by the USFA in order for coverage to apply."

I read the following sentence, "Clubs who have elected coverage and individual member coaches are covered" to refer to "fencing and related ancillary activities," or "activities that are either directly or inderectly related to US Fencing's operations. But does it? Or does it only refer to activities that US Fencing has explcitly sanctioned?

[deadender]

Has anyone ever heard of a major liability claim being made against USFA insurance?

[qatet]

Originally Posted by parrythis

Here's one. Is it possible to obtain a copy of the physical policy? If so, who should be contacted? Apparently our club owner has tried to obtain a copy and has not had any success. I participate in other (non-fencing) sports/hobbies in which the owner of the venue insists on having a copy of the insurance policy before they allow activities to occur on their property. This does not seem like an unreasonable request. Can you point me at someone that can help with this?

Sorry for taking so long to get back on this. I'm sure that El Chucko will have more to say on this subject, but this is a summary of the response:

If you have questions about the policy, contact the USFA with your questions. If you are dealing with a venue that needs to have specific questions answered, have them contact the USFA with their questions. It is easy to get a certificate that states that you are covered or to get these answers, but very, very, very difficult to get a copy of the policy. This was phrased mostly in terms of "Well, you wouldn't understand the policy unless you're in insurance, so it's better for everybody if you just call us." If nothing else will satisfy your venue, you can probably get a copy of the policy, but there is <understatement> extreme reluctance </understatement> to give out physical copies of the policy.

[KD5MDK]

That is highly curious.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

That is highly curious.

Not particularly. You've seen the National Office at work enough to know that their standard methodology goes something along the lines of "deny, confuse, delay .... destroy all evidence."

[riceboy]

While this may seem strange. (And I'm going to out myself as even more of a total geek) The SCA seems to have a very similar policy when it comes to their insurance. Guidelines are posted and questions answered, but when it comes down to getting a copy of said policy, it's nigh impossible.

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by qatet

Sorry for taking so long to get back on this. I'm sure that El Chucko will have more to say on this subject, but this is a summary of the response:

If you have questions about the policy, contact the USFA with your questions. If you are dealing with a venue that needs to have specific questions answered, have them contact the USFA with their questions. It is easy to get a certificate that states that you are covered or to get these answers, but very, very, very difficult to get a copy of the policy. This was phrased mostly in terms of "Well, you wouldn't understand the policy unless you're in insurance, so it's better for everybody if you just call us." If nothing else will satisfy your venue, you can probably get a copy of the policy, but there is <understatement> extreme reluctance </understatement> to give out physical copies of the policy.

Thanks! A lot!! I do appreciate your taking the time to dig into this, and yes, I will chat more with El Chucko about this.

It is interesting how reluctant the powers-that-be are to share this information. Whenever I judge whether a given organization's policies are reasonable or not, I compare them to other similar organizations that I have experience with to to see how they have handled the same issue. One of my hobbies is flying R/C airplanes. As such, the club that I belong to is a charter member of the AMA. (No, not the doctors' organization... it stands for "Acadamy of Model Aeronautics".) The place where we fly our model planes requires a copy of the actual insurance policy each and every year before we are allowed to fly there. The AMA provides this with no problem.

So, knowing that other organizations are willing to do this, I have to wonder what the issue is with the USFA. When an organization is so very reluctant to share the information, it kind of makes one start to wonder what it is that they are trying to hide.

After discussing this further with El Chucko, I may contact the USFA and dig into this a little further myself.

Thanks again.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by oso97

Not particularly. You've seen the National Office at work enough to know that their standard methodology goes something along the lines of "deny, confuse, delay .... destroy all evidence."

I didn't say it was unexpected. I just said it sparked my interest. I shall have to determine which of my associates are in insurance and then how to arrange that a copy be obtained.

[Philistine]

"Because you wouldn't understand it" seems a remarkably silly reason to not give out copies of the insurance policy to people who are actually paying money for insurance coverage.

--Philistine

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by Philistine

"Because you wouldn't understand it" seems a remarkably silly reason to not give out copies of the insurance policy to people who are actually paying money for insurance coverage.

--Philistine

Simple response to their "canned" objection: "No, but my lawyer will."

[Craig]

Originally Posted by parrythis

Here's one. Is it possible to obtain a copy of the physical policy? If so, who should be contacted? Apparently our club owner has tried to obtain a copy and has not had any success. I participate in other (non-fencing) sports/hobbies in which the owner of the venue insists on having a copy of the insurance policy before they allow activities to occur on their property. This does not seem like an unreasonable request. Can you point me at someone that can help with this?

Some landlords will not lease out space without a copy of the insurance.

[griffindm]

I for one think the reluctance is based on their being disinclined to publicize the "depth of their pockets" relative to suits filed. While I can understand a general reluctance, I would also like to know that the coverage terms and amounts are reasonable relative to what I think I am getting in terms of protection from suits related to coaching or running a club.

[Cookeit]

One time,
I went to my club
and only brought athletic shorts.
They wouldn't let me fence for
insurance reasons.
I had to borrow one of their warm-up
pants.

[Cookeit]

It was foil not epee, FYI.

[ysbadadden]

Originally Posted by Cookeit

One time,
I went to my club
and only brought athletic shorts.
They wouldn't let me fence for
insurance reasons.
I had to borrow one of their warm-up
pants.

A young lady in my club received a foil that pierced her jeans (we allow jeans in club competitions; they're as strong, though they don't cover as much, as regular fencing pants -- which don't cover the lower leg anyway, and the mask doesn't cover the back of the head and the neck, and don't get me started....) so she got a foil point through her jeans and into her leg (just a little), and her response was to show up at the next practice .... in shorts!