Mom needs to vent

[Chuck F.]

The instructor at one club I used to attend was extremely "rough around the edges" at times. He isn't arrogant, and doesn't really ever look down at people, he just has terrible social skills. Often, kids would have a particularly difficult time with him.

What he did to off-set the issue was bring in an assistant to work with the kids, almost as a liaison. She was very "grandmotherly", and the kids seem to like her. She doesn't actually do any of the coaching, really, she just acts as a go-between. The instructor still runs the lessons, but the assistant is there to interact with the kids more directly.

Of course, this is in a group lesson context. I don't see anything like this working with individual lessons.

[hpfencing]

Originally Posted by Peach

I try to convey to parents that they shouldn't rush out and buy kit just yet. My students are just trying out the sport,

I don't criticize kids who do arrive with unsuitable equipment, though. I try very hard not to react one way or another.

ditto, we have the supplies to suit up our classes in electric gear and we encourage our parents not to spend a lot of money on equipment or trips until they are sure it's the sport for there kiddo!

[Jengar]

I've dealt with a number of fencing coaches.

On the bad side:
1. The coach who wants to be his students' buddy.
2. The coach who wants to make fencing classes like boot camp or, on the opposite extreme, has absolute bedlam and chaos going on during class.
3. The coach who never really teaches anything because he just wants the kids to have fun.
4. The coach who demands too much from kids for their age.
5. The coach who plays favorites.
6. The coach who is insensitive to his students' training needs.
7. The coach who thinks his students' parents are made of money.

On the good side:
1. The coach who is approachable to all students.
2. The coach who has appropriate structure to his individual and group classes.
3. The coach who teaches correct technique but allows his students to have fun.
4. The coach who tailors his lessons to the age and experience of his students.
5. The coach who gives every student the same opportunity to learn.
6. The coach who seeks to provide what his students need rather than what the coach wants.
7. The coach who recognizes that finances are important and doesn't require unnecessary purchases to attend class.

Most coaches have a mix of what I see as good and bad. The one trait that bothers me the most as a parent, however, is the coach who wants to be the "buddy" of his younger students. That is also one of the reasons that EVERY parent should be involved with their child's fencing activities until the child is old enough (17 to 18 years old) to be able to respond to inappropriate conduct by his coach on his own. I can only think of one reason a coach wants to be a child fencer's "buddy" and it has nothing to do with fencing. If you see that trait in your child's coach, then find another coach.

Oh, and as for the coach or instructor commenting "oh your mommy bought you the beginner kit:" That's one of those bad things that parents should deal with by simply going to the coach and asking him not to say things like that to their child. If you are the one paying the bill for his lessons, the coach should respond accordingly.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by Jengar

The one trait that bothers me the most as a parent, however, is the coach who wants to be the "buddy" of his younger students. That is also one of the reasons that EVERY parent should be involved with their child's fencing activities until the child is old enough (17 to 18 years old) to be able to respond to inappropriate conduct by his coach on his own. I can only think of one reason a coach wants to be a child fencer's "buddy" and it has nothing to do with fencing. If you see that trait in your child's coach, then find another coach.

I think that you have significantly overstated things here, especially the pederasty insinuation.

Now if "buddy" implies seeking to spend time outside of fencing with your child, or physical contact not related to correcting form or technique, that's one thing. But joking around with the kids, playing the warm-up games, etc., and treating them in a friendly, familiar manner within the space / environment / context of the club, should not indicate anything to a parent but laudable camaraderie.

Maybe it's just me; although I'm primarily a competitor, I often teach the beginning and intermediate classes at my club, and I'm a college professor; in both settings I find that friendly and relatable works better pedagogically than cold and aloof.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Jengar

Most coaches have a mix of what I see as good and bad. The one trait that bothers me the most as a parent, however, is the coach who wants to be the "buddy" of his younger students. That is also one of the reasons that EVERY parent should be involved with their child's fencing activities until the child is old enough (17 to 18 years old) to be able to respond to inappropriate conduct by his coach on his own. I can only think of one reason a coach wants to be a child fencer's "buddy" and it has nothing to do with fencing. If you see that trait in your child's coach, then find another coach.

The way I'm interpreting this now makes me look like this:

What exactly do you mean by be a "buddy?"

Liking children doesn't imply pedophilia.

[lefty_monster]

Come on, guys. Can't you tell the difference between pedophilia and friendliness? I think it's easy to tell.

Then again, being a woman I have a gut instinct that tells me to run away from certain men.

[dcmdale]

This thread is drifting off into a sensitive topic that might be better in the Coaches Forum (or Politics!).

I think that Jengar's post could be read in different ways and I am willing the give J the benefit of the doubt that they know the difference between appropriate and inappropriate--most, but certainly not all, parents do.

I've seen this issue from several angles: 1) a parent of a couple of teenagers, 2) a long-time children/youth worker (including a 6 years stint leading a Sunday School class of 40-60 4-year-olds), 3) an attorney whose clients included non-profits where this issue came up on both a policy and "specific issue" basis, and 4) as someone who has a couple of close friends who had to deal with demonstrably false criminal charges of this type.

1. There is a spectrum of parental attitudes and sensitivities to these issues, with most parents being in the fairly rational middle area. Most parents have assumptions both positive and negative about your behavior towards their children. Most parents assume that if their kids falls and skins a knee that you will help them up and clean it (while calling for them). Most parents assume that if a kid is crying for no apparent reason that you will try to find out why and to comfort them (appropriately) if necessary. Most parents assume that if their kid is beating another to a pulp, that you will intervene. (Practically all parents will assume that if their kid is being beaten to a pulp, you will intervene). However, most parents are not all parents. The worst trouble that I ever got into was for picking up a 4 year old bully and depositing him in a nearby chair. There was no claim that how I did it was wrong, only that "I had touched their kid." "You need to understand that our child has a hyperactivity disorder and that a physical response to his aggression merely reinforces his view that aggression is the appropriate response to situations." Fine. Your kids is welcome back in my class when you can assure me that my "negatively reinforcing physical response" will not be required to protect other kids.

2. Not everything that a parent is watching for is necessarily of a criminal nature -- "that kind of buddy." There is an appropriate coach/student relationship and there is nothing wrong at all with a warm, friendly, approachable coach. I don't get the impression that Jengar was talking about that type of coach. It is hard to define when you become uncomfortable. In my experience in fencing, the club owners have taken care of those kinds of coaches without parental involvement. (Of course, if the club owner was the person...).

3. Attentive, even hyper-attentive, hyper-sensitive, parents are not the ones that you should be worried about. They know where your hands are and they know what you are up to. The ones to be afraid of are the ones who are uninvolved with their kids. They don't know what their kid is up to. They don't know if their kid is lying to them. They don't know what the truth of the situation is--because they weren't there. The two criminal situations that I referred to both involved children lying to uninvolved parents who didn't believe that their kids would lie to them. In both cases, the child believed that the parent would get some value out of their lie. Fortunately, in both cases the circumstances of the alleged touching were such that multiple unrelated attentive parent type adults were present who knew where hands were and weren't and were willing to testify. The fact that there were several unrelated, adult witnesses contradicting the unsupported statement of a single kid was not enough to keep the matters from criminal trial. Those uninvolved, bad parents have a tendency to try to make up for it all by going all out "to support their kid" when they think that "their kid has been wronged" (and the possibility of $$$ is involved). (I would hate to be a schoolteacher where it is simply your word against theirs).

(I am certainly not implying that abuse doesn't happen. I can just as well give examples where there clearly was inappropriate-ness and other examples where I don't have a clue who is telling the truth.)

4. Gender is not a defense. Both criminal situations above were against 40+ year old women with long histories of youth work.

[HDG]

dcmdale: Wise words.

[Jengar]

Originally Posted by HDG

I think that you have significantly overstated things here, especially the pederasty insinuation.

Now if "buddy" implies seeking to spend time outside of fencing with your child, or physical contact not related to correcting form or technique, that's one thing. But joking around with the kids, playing the warm-up games, etc., and treating them in a friendly, familiar manner within the space / environment / context of the club, should not indicate anything to a parent but laudable camaraderie.

Maybe it's just me; although I'm primarily a competitor, I often teach the beginning and intermediate classes at my club, and I'm a college professor; in both settings I find that friendly and relatable works better pedagogically than cold and aloof.

Point well taken. I am not talking about situations where a coach treats his students in a "friendly, familiar manner within the context of club activities." I agree that a student needs that kind of atmosphere in fencing. By the term "buddy," I mean an "age inappropriate" friendship, that is, an adult coach who tries to be a friend on a child's level - outside of fencing. I know I am not expressing myself well here but I have seen coaches who try to be a kid themselves, thinking that is the way to relate to their students and I don't think that is healthy for students. I am a friend to my coach but we are about the same age. But if my coach was inviting his youth students over to play video games or watch movies at his/her house on a regular basis, that would bother me. Even if nothing else was going on.

So I probably did overstate things when I said there was only one reason a coach would want to be a child's "buddy." There are probably many reasons. Some more worrisome than others.

Sorry for the thread drift.

[HDG]

I think we're on the same page.

[commiemermaid]

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

Practice device? Maybe not. Fun? You betcha! It's a pretty good party game, although I've mostly seen it for saber. You tape a set number of balloons to the target area (so, in theory, you can adapt it to any weapon), and then you try to pop all the other kid's balloons while parrying and moving to protect your own...

Wow, I'm going to have to suggest that for my team's Halloween party. Sounds like a good time!

Say hi to Nick for me. He sounds like a sweetie.

[Nicksmom]

New session started on Thursday. I guess some one forgot to tell the instructors AGAIN. We waited 30 minutes, AGAIN.
If anyone out there lives in the Kalamazoo MI area, and is willing to take on a 6 year old PLEASE let me know.

[OMCEPKEN]

Suggest you and he put some stars or stickers on his equipment, and have fun with it. Instead of showing off the equipment, encourage your son to show off his footwork that he's been working on so hard.

[remise]

My son started at aged 5. He had all beginners stuff. I did put stickers on some of his equipment and I engraved his name on his foil. He fenced with older kids and never seemed to mind. He would come home with welts and cuts from the flickers in the club but he never complained. The youngest kid in the class next to him was aged 8, so there was quite a difference in age and in skill.

I switched coaches over the years. Several times.

We always praised my son when he fenced for practice or tournaments - even though he'd place dead last. He placed dead last for years. Around aged 9, he began to 'put it together' as it were. But he still lost to the bigger 'badder' fencers.

More tournaments. More last places. More years passing. More praise for him..

Then.....an ephiany. We travel to a HUGE tournament in Vegas. My son is, as always, the youngest fencer registered. He's on the strip against a seasoned Vetaran - a fencer by the name of Thomas Lutton. A coach wanders up to me and asks,"Is that your son?" (It was Yves Auriol). "His attacks are beautiful. Just beautiful. He is a pleasure to watch." Of course, he was crushed in that tournament, but something about it changed him.

He went home, and for the first time, started winning. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it takes the little ones a bit longer to develop because they ARE so young, but boy are the benefits worth it.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by Nicksmom

New session started on Thursday. I guess some one forgot to tell the instructors AGAIN. We waited 30 minutes, AGAIN.
If anyone out there lives in the Kalamazoo MI area, and is willing to take on a 6 year old PLEASE let me know.

If it was San Francisco, I'd love to help.

You might try PMing wahrman; he fenced around that area for a while and might know of someone.

[wahrman]

Unfortunately, despite having lived in Kalamazoo for 5 years, I don't know the
fencing scene there. But I do have some friends who might know something.

I'll ask.

There are some good clubs in Grand Rapids but they may not be what you are
looking for right now.

I almost took a job in Kzoo about a month ago. If that happened, I would have
been happy to do some coaching.

Originally Posted by RITFencing

If it was San Francisco, I'd love to help.

You might try PMing wahrman; he fenced around that area for a while and might know of someone.

[ivlobane]

This kills me...

First, the coach puts a 6 year old with HS teenagers...
Second, he does not compliment one of his student's weapon?
...an atleast "mmm, not so bad, not bad..." or something would serve much better...

I've seen kids get turned off by this alone... What if it was the next Kolobkov???

[lewis]

Originally Posted by remise

We always praised my son when he fenced for practice or tournaments - even though he'd place dead last. He placed dead last for years. Around aged 9, he began to 'put it together' as it were. But he still lost to the bigger 'badder' fencers.
.

I hope Nick has found a better club/coach. My son started at 7 and his first coach told me I was wasting my money because he had no talent and would never be any good - this was after a year and a half of classes and lessons!!!!! Next coach made him laugh and have fun and lo and behold he GOT BETTER. Before the crackdown on "underage" fencers I would take him to opens and he would lose every bout. We would count touches as one point, simultaneous as half and one light (before the new timing) as two points. We would keep score this way instead of by how many bouts he won - after all he was very small. Now that he is older, and pretty good, he always finds time to warm up with littler kids, and never ever blanks another fencer in a DE; especially a younger less experienced one.

Wishing Nick all the best.

[fencerbill]

I can remember one young woman at my club. I do some refereeing and I can remember the days when she would tear up after finishing dead last. I kept encouraging her that things would improve. Now she has an A classification and smiles when I remind her.