Correcting students positions without touching?

[jfarmer]

After reading a couple of threads about problems and potential problems arising from instructors touching students, I started thinking seriously about potential issues.

While I'm not a touchy-feely type, I do find myself using my hands a lot more to correct positions, demonstrate proper arm movement, etc. Indeed, in studying Szabo's "Fencing & the Master", he shows making corrections with the hand, the blade, as well as the voice.

So in these litigious times, how are other instructors handling this? Do you never touch a student with a hand? What about a weapon? (Szabo shows using a foil similar to a baton to correct an arm or foot position.)

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

[RITFencing]

I use the weapon at times (I've started keeping contact with my student's blade at all times, to develop a good feeling of the opponent's blade and also to help correct hand position. If their hand starts to drift inward, for eaxmple, they find it difficult to keep my balde enegaged in 6.) I also use verbal cues to remind them. "Feet." "Hand." That sort of thing. This generally comes after they know what the correct position is. I also try to make sure that my own on guard and blade placement is as good as possible, to give them something to mirror. I also give cues with my own hand and feet with they need to adjust something. To return to the example of a hand drifting in, I will someitmes move my hand a bit further out with an obvious, exagerate motion. Also, having some lines on the floor is GREAT. Say it with me, now: "Put your heels on the line, please."

However, when first starting, it's difficult to avoid some physical contact. I try to use my feet on theirs, pushing them this way and that. Sometimes I put my toe or tip on the floor and say "move your toe/heel here." Verbal cues are difficult for beginners, because they don't know where they should be and tend to overcorrect. However, I have never had a problem using my hands to turn a student's shoulders, move their elbow or hand, or correct their posture. Just stay away from the sensitive areas and you'll be fine.

A good way to think about it, especially for kids, is: "Would I have a problem with a coach doing this with my son/daughter?" If the answer is yes for anything, you shouldn't do it. If the answer is no for anything, you're probably safe.

[Allen Evans]

I use my weapon a lot when making corrections....including tapping a knee or a foot if it's out of position, or needs to be moved.

I do, however, tell my students that upon occasion, I will make a correction by touching an elbow or arm of their weapon arm. If they object to that, they just need to let me know ahead of time, and that correction will not be made.

Student objections to being touched usually grow out of being touched by surprise, or being touched someplace other than arm. I'll always warn a student before I touch them, and I rarely touch anything other than the weapon arm. For hip and leg position, I'll use my weapon to make adjustments or I'll demonstrate on myself.

Allen

[Peach]

I don't have any concerns about touching a student on the shoulder or arm with my hand to correct a stance. Like Allen, I adjust hips, legs, and feet with the tip of the weapon if necessary. Many of my (middle school age, male) students cannot adjust a position simply by watching; they have to feel the correct position. It helps that I'm a middle-aged woman older than most of their moms, of course.

It is, after all, a sport in which we are hitting one another with metal sticks.

It could be worse. It could be wrestling.

[Frater_Frag]

If its about adjusting shoulders or arms, I use my hand, if its about adjusting legs etc, I use my foil. That way I don´t have to bend myself, very important if you teach kids and other short people!

Besides, by using the blade, you can´t be accused of improper touching...

[erik_blank]

At the beginning of each course I will explain to the students that I will often need to physicaly move them around to get into proper stance and body position. I will ask if anyone has a problem with that and make a mental note of anyone that informs me of such. Then each time, before I go to move them, I will say something to the effect of "I'm going to move you now, is that OK?"

So FAR this has worked well for me.

[Coach Vic]

[/quote]
A good way to think about it, especially for kids, is: "Would I have a problem with a coach doing this with my son/daughter?" If the answer is yes for anything, you shouldn't do it. If the answer is no for anything, you're probably safe.[/quote]

Since I am a middle-aged male volunteer coach in a high school environment, I have been concerned about this for a long time. I tend to avoid almost all physical contact as a matter of policy. Most times it takes a little more time to talk someone into a proper position or form, but they find it themselves, which I'd like to think helps with them mapping their response...they will (I hope) get better at feeling their way into position without the physical prompt being part of the process.

I have refused parent's requests for private lessons for their kids...I only work at the HS in regularly scheduled practices with the coach (or coaches some years) in attendance...with parents rightfully concerned with the welfare of their kids, I have tried to always avoid any possibly misinterpretable action or situation.

The instances of predation by those in positions of trust that are trumpeted by the press, make it a reality that the rest of us have to be aware that their slimy behavior affects the way everything we do is evaluated.

I may err on the side of caution (I'd like to think I stop short of paranoia) but the fewer physical contacts that happen, the fewer that can be misinterpreted.

[Don Badowski]

On Saturday I was watching the US Gymnastics championships. Those tiny little elf girls do a vault, balance beam, floor exercise, etc. They come back and their middle aged male coaches are all over them with hugs and kisses. I thought about this thead.

This is just the congratulations after a good exercise. In practice, gymnastics coaches have to have their hands on the girls hips (at least) all the time. They don't seem worried, and I don't hear about them being sued or arrested. At the schools, it seems like the math teachers are the ones most in the news about inappropriate behavior towards students. What is it about math?

[Rick Thompson]

Vic, your concern about being accountable during private lessons is admirable. However, you can minimize that risk by not giving lessons where it's just you and your student in the room. If there are others nearby (hopefully fencers who are practicing, etc), you eliminate a "he said-she said" situation.

[Rick Thompson]

I had two students last year who were of a very orthodox religion. They were brother and sister, and they were prohibited from touching the other gender (among other strictures). One of their parents were always in the gym, watching.

I discussed this issue at length with their parents, and I either used my blade or used my gloved hand(s) to correct the young girl's position.

The other issue there was shaking hands after a bout. But I make sure that all my students know that there are some folks who end the bout differently (shaking with the gloved hand, tapping bells, etc), so this was never a problem.

[Coach Vic]

Don's comments on gymnastics coaches reminded me of the figure skating folks who seem to be cut from the same cloth...with all the lifts and spots required for those two disciplines, the physicality between athlete and coach may be more acceptable to both observers and participants.
I have been very proud to shake the hands of my athletes for about fifteen years or so now<chuckle> and very relieved when I finally seemed to get the message across that a misconstrued hug could get me thrown out of the gym for good and of no future use to them. They have been good kids, enthusiastic, friendly and occasionally deeply disappointed in a bout or match but my "non-verbal communication" keeps me at a focused social distance.
Maybe it is paranoia, but I enjoy having the athletes and their parents greet me with a smile if we cross paths in public, with no whispers or raised eyebrows to marr any future interactions. Your mileage may vary...for me it works.
As far as Math teachers go...well, that's an invitation for profiling that I will decline lest our conversation is equated to causing division in our ranks.

[BrianH]

I teach college students, who are better at translating my verbal cues into correct movements than kids would be. I feel comfortable touching shoulders and arms (I usually say what I am doing before I touch them) and use a foil elsewhere (mostly knees and feet).

Over the years I have become close to a few students and see them for coffee outside of class. I make sure it is a public place, and my wife frequently joins us. I live in a small community, so a few bad stories (true or false) could be devastating. And if younger, home-schooled students are admitted to the class, I encourage a parent to come with them.

I treat the students with respect, and expect the same in return.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Well, I assist in coaching at my local club when we get an influx of new students. The fact that I'm the same age (or younger at times) as those I'm teaching puts me in a unique situation. With guys, I typically have no issues. With women, especially those my age, I have to be a bit more careful. I have found that the phrase "may I" works well. Even still, I don't use my hand to correct anything other than the arms or shoulders. I use my foot for the feet, and on the few occasions that verbal description or example doesn't work for other corrections, my blade.

[jBirch]

I refrain from being alone with students whenever possible. As to physical corrections, unfortunately you have to do them in order to get the body movements working correctly.

If I do have to touch a student anyplace but on an arm or a foot, I tend to warn them about what I'm going to do and why I"m going to do it loudly enough that any onlookers can hear and judge too. I'll press on the tops of their heads to get them to sink down in the en garde, or pull on their hand in an off-balance lunge or press on the centre of their back to demonstrate why it's important to do the movements correctly. I don't think I've ever touched a student's hips, knees/quads, face, shoulders or chest with anything but a fencing blade.

I rarely touch the female students with anything other then the blade in order to coax them into position. There's enough issues being an under 30 male coach as it is.

I've always been uncomfortable with coaches who hug their fencers. Maybe I'm just repressed, but it sounds too initimate to be proper for me.

My basic rule is that fencing is often a tactile game. There are situations where touch is important to emparting sentiment du fer and I would be doing a disservice to my students were I to withold that from them. At the same time, I need to ensure that I'm acting ethically and properly at all times.

So, like drinking, I suppose "touch in moderation" is ok.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Theres nothing wrong with touching somebody, as long as its not innappropriate.

Stay away from the tits and ass.

[Frater_Frag]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Stay away from the tits and ass.

Unless you touch them with cold steel!

[jessicasimpson]

Shock collars allow you to give corrections from the other end of your club

[AnnoyingEpeeGuy]

Originally Posted by jessicasimpson

Shock collars allow you to give corrections from the other end of your club

Why stop at shock collars? Why not use electric cattle prods?

[jessicasimpson]

the distance is not as good

[Fencergrl]

I am a touchy-feely person. I don't think twice about hugging my students (who are often very young) especially after they have done well in a competition or have been injured. Nor do I give it a second thought when I try and get them in the correct position.

Mind you... being female and having very young students have a lot to do with this. I treat teens and adults completely different.