Cards of All Colours

[Cyranox11]

Hi Everyone

At a foil competition on Saturday I was aked to preside one of the semi-final bouts (I had shamefully been knocked out in the previous round by a team mate I should have beaten: sulk sulk!). Anyway one of the fencers turned his back on his opponent to look at the box (neither fencer had scored a point) so I gave him a yellow card (he had turned around completely and I deemed it to be a dangerous situation).

A few points later he did the same thing and I gave him a red card, at which point he protested saying I should have given himm a second yellow! As far as I am aware the ruling is 1st offence: yellow, second offence: red! So I told him not to argue with the president and that he should continue the bout. Am I wrong? Should I have given him a second yellow?

Anyway at 14-11 against the same fencer he turned his back again and I had no option to give him a second red and he lost the bout! He was none too happy, as he still maintained I should have given him a second yellow!

So what is the story? When do you give a second yellow and when do you give a red?

[sabreur]

Turning the back on the opponent is a yellow card for first offence, red card for all subsequent offences.

Also should result in the annulment of any touch scored by the fencer at fault.

You did right, and this fencer ought to learn the rules.

Also ought to learn that looking at the lights is a really dumb thing to do.

Regards, Mark Ray

------------------
Why sabre? Because you don't take heads with the point.

[Zelda]

Cyranox, you were right. Its exactly what I would do.

[Cyranox11]

Hi All
Thanks
I thought I was right, but then he sewed/sowed (never van remeber which is right lol) that little seed of doubt in my mind.
Thanks for the reassurance
Later all

[Lumberg]

According to USFA rules which is also an FIE rule, you cannot have your back facing your opponent while fencing. Regarding your question about the red card, it was the right thing to do because it was penalizing for the same offense.
Some directors when telling the fencer what they are getting the yellow card for, also give a verbal warning with the yellow card that "if it happens again, they will get a red card".

[neevel]

The fencer was either:

A) Playing you for clueless as a referee

or

B) Clueless himself.

You can recieve _one_ yellow in the course of a bout-- any subsequent penalty is a red card (or worse). Also, a fencer can not recieve a yellow card if a red card has already been given out (e.g., if fencer committs a group II offense and gets a red, any later a group I offense will also be red carded).

If you'd really wanted to, could have invited him to call for a bout committe on that red card-- then you could have awarded him not just a red for turning the back, but an additional red for unjustified appeal !

-Dave Neevel

[HilandDoug]

Shoulda hit him with the red card for unjustified appeal right off the bat. You don't need to have a bout committee for unjust appeal, do you?

[neevel]

True, but having his misconception shot down by the bout committe would probably make a stronger (and more satisfying ) impression.
Mind you, this was evidently just a beginner so if I were the ref I probably wouldn't be overly harsh on him for his misunderstanding of the rules unless he were really being obnoxious. His own embarrasment at finding out after his protests that they were groundless will probably be enough to get the point across.

-Dave

[Cyranox11]

Hi
This guy was not a beginner, he is busy studying to become a coach, that is why I began to doubt my own knowledge of the rules (generally good)! It is just another example of the generally poor knowledge of the rules amongst even senior fencers in South Africa!
Thanks for all the help, I am just glad I stuck to my guns and kept to my decision. I did not give him a card for arguing because he was not rude or abusive, his comments were in my opinion within the bounds of what is reasonable.

[Rapier9mm]

c'mon. I am a cadet fencer & even i know those rules and have done ever since i began. also with a little research i know a few of the current rule changes as well. but not only should you have thrown a red card at him, also throw the rule book at him for some night time reading

[Lumberg]

I think the USFA rules are close to FIE rules. On the main page of www.fencing.net, there is a penalty chart in Adobe acrobat format. AND, you were right! Yellow card for first offense. Red Card for second and third offense. Also to note, Red card for fourth offense.
Since this was an experienced fencer, maybe he was taking you for a fool on the red card rule. Also, this experienced fencer should work on not looking to the scoring lights and keep on fencing until the director calls a halt.
Unfortunately, I sometimes have a tendency to look at the scoring lights.

[Cutter]

I am going to try and give the guy the benefit of the doubt. I think what he was "thinking" is that in most cases such as this, the first comment from the referee is a warning and not the card. So in his mind, the first time you made mention, he assumed it was only a warning, so the second offence would be the yellow card. I hope this is all that went on as I would hate to think the alternative that either A. he was trying to pull one over or B. an experienced fencer who doesn't know rules about carding.

------------------
Cutter
Reach out and "touch" someone.

[Moonitic]

Cyrano, you definitely did the right thing. Cutter, Cyrano did mention that the first warning was accompanied by the proper card, so the guy should have known what he was up against from the beginning.

Of course, some people just don't think. I had a girl lose a 14-14 bout to me because she covered target area for the umpteenth time in one day (not to mention our bout). Ouchie!

[Cutter]

I heard an intersting story last night about carding. This just happened in Denver on Monday. First touch, corp-a-corp, opponent gets a yellow card, our kid scores the touch...now 1-0. Second touch, opponent crosses over, does corp-a-corp, is parried and our kid reposts. Touch for cross over, red card/touch for corp-a-corp, point for parry repost...now 4-0. Next touch opponent scared to move, our kid does quick attack opponent counter attacks...bout 5-0 checkmate in 3 moves.

------------------
Cutter
Reach out and "touch" someone.

[Clean Touch]

Right or wrong, the director calls the shots and has the final word. You did well not to buckle under to the fencer's pressure.

[d8m2k]

I am always amazed at how many people do not know or understand the rules. I hate hearing those fencers complain, "But I had the right of way! It wasn't the other fencer's!?" or, "You can't card me for that!". Competitors should really do their utmost to keep up with the current rules, and if you are not a regular competitor, don't complain.