The Real Thing

[zhenqing]

Has anyone seen an actual dueling weapon (epee or saber) and could share if these bear any resemblance to the weapons used in fencing today? Are these available still and if so how much would they sell for? Many years ago I recall having seen one (epee), the blade was somewhat heavier and it had a VERY sharp point, it was awesome, in the sense that it inspire a lot of respect.

[cleghmor]

Hi

I have held a duelling rapier. It scared the crap out of me. Very stiff and a bit shorter than my modern epee. It has a very large "strong" and tapers to a very fine point. This thing does not flick- no way no how- and although made of a big hunk of steel, it was marvelously balanced.

clegh

[Rapier9mm]

ok - my mates big bro has about 3 sabres & being a sabreuer i have played with all of them, they are quite different to modern fencing sabres in the way the blade is quite thick, yet quite thin (although one was a cavalry sabre & another a naval sabre)
The guards are smaller, but the grips are the same, blades sweep back unlike modern sabres, and the weight is definatly in the blade more, even more so with the cavalry sabre. Its heaps of fun to go to his place and play with em. lol

[sabreur]

I have a matched set of dueling sabres that are about the same weight as modern fencing sabres--except they have points and edges (about twelve inches of edge and about six inches of false edge). I've never done any cutting tests them, but I think it would be hard to do serious damage with a cut. The point will poke pretty well though.

I also have a single example of a dueling sabre that is similar to a Radaellian fencing sabre--ie., the blade is about a half inch wide. You could do more serious damage with this sabre, especially if you were using full moulinets.

I'd note that all of these weapons are considerably lighter than military sabres--the US light calvary sabre weighed about 2-1/2 pounds, and the heavy calvary sabre (aptly named "Old Wristbreaker") weighed in at 4-1/2 pounds.

I paid $350 for the matched set, and a little under $100 for the single sabre--however, I'd expect to get about twice what I paid for them if I were to auction them on e-bay.

Regards, Mark Ray

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Why sabre? Because you don't take heads with the point.

[This message has been edited by sabreur (edited 12-26-2000).]

[HilandDoug]

The antique smallswords I've seen while touring castles in the UK look like they have epee blades on them, but, as mentioned, are stronger in the forte. I bought a Victorian sabre in an antique shop in Warwick that has a marvelous balance, and it appears to have been used for something at one time. The blade has 2 knicks that look like someone parried, SF sabre style, edge to edge. But it bears almost no resemblance to our fencing sabre.

[Tyrantraxus]

Speacking about the 'real' thing..

I am lucky to have a collection of antique swords passed me by my grandfather..while most of that swords are Japanese there are some European examples as well..

I have handled a pair of duelling German epee and a pair of duelling Redaellian's Sabre;the balance and the weight of the epees is similar to a SF epee but the blade is much stiffer(you cant do flick with that,but you can do nice coupe'),the grip is similar to a SF French but without the curvature,the blade however still have some flexibility and the point control is good.
The point is extremely sharp and ends in a needle like shape,the guard and the handle are decorated in silver.

The Redaellian sabre instedad feel completely different from her SF cousin..the guard and grip are bigger and heavier,the blade with a rounded point is wide but light with a fuller in the forte..in my opinion it is best used with moulinets.

For those who are interested in antique weapons..i can scan pictures of those.

Merry Christmas!

Mario.

[zhenqing]

Mario, it would be great if you could scan those pics of the epee and sabre! I was around 11 or 12 when I saw the duelling epee and if I were to put my experience in one word, it would be FEAR! I mean the blade was so stiff and the point so sharp that even a child, which I was at the time, could see that it could go through someone like a knife through butter. I also learned that my uncle had been in an actual duel (they had chosen saber as the weapon, since they were both career military officers, and that was the custom at the time). It was an event I was not supposed talk about. I also saw a pair of dueling sabers but it was the epee that impressed me the most because of the needle-sharp blade as well as its shape (I was told that the three "channels", or indentures, on the blade were to allow blood to come out, but later I've read that the real purpose was to make the weapon lighter...don't know who is right)

[HilandDoug]

Much like Maximillion armor, the grooves were to make the blade lighter and stronger.

[Gav]

I've had a shot of a real cavalry sabre. I didn't find it very good weapon for fencing with. It was very heavy and weighted towards the tip - all very obvious whe you think about what it was designed for. Me and a mate of mine (who's into his historical fencing) had a mock fight with them. After a couple of minutes we were finding it difficult to parry effectively. The end result, I missed a parry and he sliced my hand. I am now the proud owner of a sabre scar approximately 1" long. This was definitely a lesson in wearing the correct safety gear.

[Tyrantraxus]

Compliments Gav,

and welcome to the club!
I currently sport at least 3 scars that can be related to HF practice..i am no proud of those however, as those scars are just a visible and permanent signs of my mistakes..

About HF sabres..duelling types has a rounded point and are lighter than cavalry types that are also sharp pointed,however the big differencies are in their respective roles and utilization.

Mario

[sabreur]

Folks,

The 19th C sabres with rounded points are practice weapons--ie., they are fencing weapons, not dueling weapons. They can come with a wide range of baskets--I have two with a narrower basket than a modern sabre, and one with a four (flattened) bar cage.

Dueling sabres had points.

Regards, Mark Ray

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Why sabre? Because you don't take heads with the point.

[Tyrantraxus]

Mark,

The Redaellian type sabre has a rounded point,it was invented in Milan by master Redaelli in 1870,the purpose of this weapon is duelling only.

[sabreur]

Well, I have three of these, and none of them is sharp enough to cut butter. I also have an image of a fencing match [img] C:\TEMPORARY\fechten.jpg [/img] which clearly shows two guys fencing in front of a jury with this kind of sabre. (I hope the image comes through--if not, I can email it to you.)

I also have a dueling sabre, made in Toledo in 1897, which has the same weight and shape as the round-tipped examples, but is both sharp and pointed.

Also, classic Italian sabre stresses the use of the point. It wouldn't make much sense to stress the point if you were going to use weapons that didn't have points.

Just my opinion T-rex, but I'm pretty sure the rounded point versions are practice weapons. The real things have points and are a lot sharper.

Regards, Mark Ray

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Why sabre? Because you don't take heads with the point.

[Tyrantraxus]

Sorry Mark,

but i think you are wrong...just check the book 'the secret history of the sword' written by Christopher Amberger and check the duels statistic in Italy and France..
Italians preferred to duel with rounded pointed sabres(i.e. Redaellian) while French preferred epee..

Classical Italian sabre school use extensively the point because it was influenced strongly by the Magistral&Military academy,i am afraid that SF sabre is more related to the military style than to the duelling perspective.

Anyway if you are not convinced yet..i can send and inquiry about that to Mr.Amberger or M.Martinez,just let me know if you are interested.

Mario.

[Tyrantraxus]

P.S.

I am interested in the image you got,a fencing match with a jury might be a first blood juridical duel..did you noticed in the image if the seconds are present?