concussion discussion

[btheactor]

I received a concussion from a bellguard two months ago. Are there any parents out there with kids going through this too? I cannot fence for over three months at least.Thanks fior the help!

[Nicksmom]

My kids haven't gone through it but, as a RN and former athletic trainer, I've had to request that injured kids stay out of certian activities. The main factor in all of it is how hard was the hit, what were the associated symptoms, and how many times in the past have you received a concussion.

[3x1]

My son fences sabre and was concussed (sp) about 4 years ago in January at a local tournament. It was also a bellguard in the area in the back of the head that is not protected. His opponent was flaying like Zorro and whacked him during an action. I never saw the hit but others said it was brutal. Thankfully the trainer/medic at the tournament knew how to test for a concussion and sent him immediately to the hospital. What really pissed me off was that the director of the bout came into the room, told him his 10 mintues were up and was he going to go out and finish the bout. His doctor told him not to do any physical activity for 2 months and he returned a month after that at a NAC, just to see where his strength, endurance etc. were. It was scary the first few days, he had no sense of distance for certain things. And yes it did not knock any sense into him.

[RITFencing]

When I was coaching a high school team, one of the boys foil fencers received a French pommel to the back of the head that knocked him down. There was no concussion, but we were worried about injuries (there was some cause to worry, but thankfully nothing came of it.) I was not on strip at the time, but the ref did not do a thing...

[lefty_monster]

Originally Posted by 3x1

What really pissed me off was that the director of the bout came into the room, told him his 10 mintues were up and was he going to go out and finish the bout.

That's the dirty job of a referee. The rules state that your fencer had 10 minutes for an injury break and to decide whether to keep fencing. It's not the ref's fault that the rules give only 10 minutes so please don't take it out on him.

[sleepyweasle]

At JOs one year my daughter received a heavy handed sabre blow directly to the (unprotected) back of the head (dealt by someone who has been black carded for excessive force in the past). She staggered under the blow and appeared disoriented for a few minutes. The director repeatedly asked her if she was OK and she kept mumbling that she was all right. We, as parents, could see that something clearly was amiss but we didn't realize there was anything we could do. After the bout (which she lost after being ahead until the head whack and then blowing every touch until the break before making a decent comeback - too late!) we discovered that she had no memory of the entire first half of the bout and her vision was blurred. She only "woke up" after the break - thus she had sufferred a mild concussion. We since found out that, as parents, you have the right to call a medical time out if you feel your (minor) fencer needs one and is unable to judge it appropriately.

[BrodeurNJD30]

I've had a few concussions from various sports but only one minor one from fencing. I slipped on the strip and landed on the back of my head. The others were from hockey, soccer, and stupid teenage antics. Concussions are the biggest problems in the NHL and NFL with both having committees exploring the effects on them both short and long term. The brain activity for a person with a concussion is eerily similar to that of a person in a coma. The severity of the concussion is also a sliding scale with the minor effects ranging from nausea, sensitivity to light to grand mal pressures and numbness in the body. A concussion is caused when the rotation of the head goes faster then the brain and it forms a bruise on the brain. This is why boxers try to use upper cuts and hooks to rotate the head. The treatment for this injury is rest for there is very few things you can do. The impact for each person is different and also plays upon their past head injuries. If you recall in the spring of 2000 in the eastern conference finals The New Jersey Devils were playing the Philadelphia Flyers, Down 3-1 in the series the Devils started a comeback and in game 6 the Flyers star player Eric Lindros returned from a concussion, scored two goals and one disallowed. During game 7, i think in the second period he was coming into the offensive zone head down trying to go through several defenders when Scott Stevens caught him with a shoulder check right to the head. The resulting concussion kept him out of action for 16 months and while he is still playing he has never finished a full season since and his point production hasn't been anywhere close to what he once was. His brother Brent played for the NY Islanders and was forced to retire due to concussions. Then you look at Paul Kariya who was with the Anaheim Ducks in 2003 when they were playing the NJ Devils in the Stanley cup finals. Game 6 Paul was cutting across the neutral zone when once again was completely leveled by none other than Scott Stevens. Knocked out and unable to leave the ice under his own power it was assumed he suffered the same fate as both the Lindros brothers. However only about two minutes later he was back on the ice and scored a goal forcing a game 7. (Which the Devils won to win the Cup.)

YouTube - Scott Stevens hit on Paul Kariya

You can see on the close up the sudden breath on his face shield. The difference between the two players is Kariya is 6 inches shorter and 65 pounds lighter. Recently doctors have been attributing long terms affects of depression, dimensia, Alzheimer and other degenerate brain conditions to athletes with multiple concussions. A medical group that studies this injury has requested Chris Benoit's brain to study to see if there is significant brain damage that the say may have caused him to murder his family and kill himself. They have studied two former football players whose concussions have been blamed for their deaths. One, Andre Waters, committed suicide, their findings stated that Waters brain looked like an 85 year old's with Alzheimer. He was only 44 and had played 12 seasons with the Eagles and Cardinals. Justin Strzelczyk another former football died in a high speed car crash while running from police. His behavior has been attributed to numerous concussions. Concussions have also been blamed for Muhammad Ali's condition. In regards to fencing the best thing to do is to see a sports injury doctor or a neurologist and wait for the clearance from them, and restart slowly. Light workouts to see the results and be observant for post concussion syndrome which is basically a recurrence of the symptoms of a concussion. Build yourself back up slowly cause the only way to heal is with time. Mike Richter former Goaltender for the New York Rangers was forced to retire due to concussions, coming close to returning but kept having symptoms return. Had he been younger he might have been able to get over it but took the safe route and retired, believe he is attending Yale right now. In regards to Sabre fencing about 90% of the time the reason some one is hit hard is poor distance due to them or their opponent being to close, so you may want to be selective of the actions you do when returning from the concussions. So no attack in preps, no lockouts or oppositions, and sending the attack a little longer and early as to not get caught in prep more often, yes its true you will be hit more counter attack and parry repost but if your attacking from farther out you can keep a little more distance between you and your opponent. Also Talk to the person you are bouting with explain the situation and only go half speed, you just need to see where your at and just work your way back slowly.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by sleepyweasle

We since found out that, as parents, you have the right to call a medical time out if you feel your (minor) fencer needs one and is unable to judge it appropriately.

I have been unable to find that rule (beyond good commmon sense, that is).

[sleepyweasle]

Originally Posted by HDG

I have been unable to find that rule (beyond good commmon sense, that is).

Actually I never saw it in a rule book but that's the way it was explained to me subsequently by another director.

[3x1]

Originally Posted by lefty_monster

That's the dirty job of a referee. The rules state that your fencer had 10 minutes for an injury break and to decide whether to keep fencing. It's not the ref's fault that the rules give only 10 minutes so please don't take it out on him.

I disagree. The director saw the seriousness of the situation and should have some compassion, these are teenagers. It is not everyday that someine gets hit in the back of the head. Also I did not originally mention, for not wanting to prejudice any comments, the director was a coach of the fencer my son was bouting with. Why didn't my son say anything at the beginning of the bout about this conflict? I have no idea BUT it is the responsibility of the Bout Committee not to allow the conflict in the first place.

[qatet]

Originally Posted by 3x1

I disagree. The director saw the seriousness of the situation and should have some compassion, these are teenagers. It is not everyday that someine gets hit in the back of the head. Also I did not originally mention, for not wanting to prejudice any comments, the director was a coach of the fencer my son was bouting with. Why didn't my son say anything at the beginning of the bout about this conflict? I have no idea BUT it is the responsibility of the Bout Committee not to allow the conflict in the first place.

That conflict really doesn't matter. If the injury is serious enough that 10 minutes is not enough to get up and go on, then the fencer should withdraw. If the ref was forcing your fencer to continue (not giving the option of withdrawal), that would be a problem, but otherwise the ref did the correct thing. Really, if your son was then told to not fence at all for two months, there's no way that he should have finished that bout! And holding up that bout would have held up the entire tournament, which is why a specific time limit is given for injury time-outs.

[btheactor]

Thanks for all the help. I forgot to mention that the cuncussion was done as I was lunging for a point, someone five years older flunged (I had right of way) and punched me in the head with his bellguard so hard I blacked out. He was a team mate.I have had emergency room visits ,MRI, CAT SCAN, Neurologist visits etc.I cannot understand why a person at a practice ,for a point, would do this to someone younger and smaller ??

[HDG]

Originally Posted by btheactor

Thanks for all the help. I forgot to mention that the cuncussion was done as I was lunging for a point, someone five years older flunged (I had right of way) and punched me in the head with his bellguard so hard I blacked out. He was a team mate.I have had emergency room visits ,MRI, CAT SCAN, Neurologist visits etc.I cannot understand why a person at a practice ,for a point, would do this to someone younger and smaller ??

Accident? Poor physical control? Poor distance judgment?

[lefty_monster]

Originally Posted by btheactor

Thanks for all the help. I forgot to mention that the cuncussion was done as I was lunging for a point, someone five years older flunged (I had right of way) and punched me in the head with his bellguard so hard I blacked out. He was a team mate.I have had emergency room visits ,MRI, CAT SCAN, Neurologist visits etc.I cannot understand why a person at a practice ,for a point, would do this to someone younger and smaller ??

Don't take it personally. It sounds like an accident to me.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by qatet

Really, if your son was then told to not fence at all for two months, there's no way that he should have finished that bout! And holding up that bout would have held up the entire tournament

Only for two months.

Some tournament organizers seem to routinely have delays on that order of time. :)

-B

[Rick Shellhouse]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Only for two months.

Some tournament organizers seem to routinely have delays on that order of time.

-B

Only tournaments where I might end up fencing you ....then two months delay isnt enough..


:-)

R

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I didn't end up with a concussion (well, I probably had a VERY mild one, but nothing that needed medical attention-- yes, I talked to a trainer). But I got a bell to the head, and was disoriented and unable to keep my balance for a bit, and the director didn't notice, my opponent didn't apologize, and my team had no idea what was wrong. I was up before the bellpunch, I lost afterwards. It wasn't even a contest. After the bout, my teammates didn't take me to the trainer, my coach didn't know that something was going on, only the director on the next strip noticed enough to actually ask me if I was okay to fence the last bout of the day.

I am still extremely bitter about that day.

Originally Posted by 3x1

I disagree. The director saw the seriousness of the situation and should have some compassion, these are teenagers. It is not everyday that someine gets hit in the back of the head. Also I did not originally mention, for not wanting to prejudice any comments, the director was a coach of the fencer my son was bouting with. Why didn't my son say anything at the beginning of the bout about this conflict? I have no idea BUT it is the responsibility of the Bout Committee not to allow the conflict in the first place.

It's the responsibility of the REF to either avoid the conflict entirely, or ask the fencer if it's okay. Much of the time the conflict isn't an issue, or there isn't anyone better available.

And yes, a decent ref will be a bit more compassionate on "can you continue, or do you need to withdraw" rather than "back on strip now"--- But after 10 minutes, the decision does need to be made.

My mother, over a year after a car accident I was in (not driving, long story), still firmly believes that I didn't and don't think it was a "big deal" because I started the phone conversation with "no one is hurt". In a crisis situation, we often don't hear or process everything said. Was the director forcing your son to make a choice, or was the director trying to force your child to start fencing? Big difference, and possibly not one that you're capable of remembering, since I assume you were (rightfully) upset.

Originally Posted by btheactor

I cannot understand why a person at a practice ,for a point, would do this to someone younger and smaller ??

People usually don't do these things on purpose. In fact, I've seen fencers catch their opponent who looked like they were about to fall, or other acts of genuine kindness. But when two teens who recently hit growth spurts and don't yet understand where all their body parts are at all times, accidents happen.

If people do it on purpose, it's has nothing to do with a touch. It may have to do with a long grudge, it might be because someone's mentally imbalanced, but it doesn't have to do with a touch.

And younger and/or smaller people beat me all the time. This is one of those sports where "I'm younger and smaller" will never translate to "take it easy on me".