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El Chucko · 07-11-2007, 05:03 AM

OK, I am DYING to know. . . did anyone get one of those new LP X-change foil/epee masks with the removable bib??? I have been waiting over a year for these babies. Now (dare I say it?) the wait is over, and they are finally available!

Do I splurge NOW, or wait and put it on my Christmas list? Is it everything I have dreamed of, and more????

Give me all the intricate details!

lefty_monster · 07-11-2007, 08:54 AM

Are they comfortable? And are they competition legal, because the rule says that the bib has to be sewn in?

DHCJr · 07-11-2007, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lefty_monster

Are they comfortable? And are they competition legal, because the rule says that the bib has to be sewn in?

This is one of the misconceptions that people have. There is no rule that says the bib must be sewn in. Until May of this year, I kept on hearing that tips required 2 screws. All it said was held in place at least 2 points 180 degrees apart. They have now changed the rule to match peoples misconception.

Remember this is not the first X-Change mask, Sabre has one for a number of years an FIE approved. If you look in the Appendix under Section 2.2 SHAPE, DIMENSIONS AND METHODS OF PRODUCTION OF THE ELEMENTS OF FENCING MASKS and then to the second paragraph of part 4.3 Bibs you will see "The bib must be fixed to the exterior of the grille starting from the reinforcement band onwards and extending as protection for the neck for a total height of the order of 10-12 cm. There is not a word about sewing.

lemon__fresh · 07-11-2007, 11:28 AM

LP says its FIE certified on their website

as for comfyness it uses LP's "Contour-fit" system which is amazingly comfy

and if its anything like the saber version i would highly reccomend it

YEAH 100th POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

fencerchica · 07-11-2007, 12:52 PM

I was watching the WE team finals at SN and thought it was a cool effect how, for the one woman who was wearing an xchange foil/epee mask, you had a nearly unobstructed view of the entire side of her face through the mask, even from a distance. The airflow has got to be fantastic! I have no doubt that the mask is secure, but I wonder if it will feel weird to have it touching your face/head so much less than more conventional masks do.

CvilleFencer · 07-11-2007, 12:56 PM

I have one. I have only used it a once for a couple hours of practice though. Once I get a little more time with it I will give a detailed review. It is lighter, gives more peripheral vision, and seems to breath a bit better. It does seem that the bib is a little smaller than the standard and I felt like there was less padding as I felt hits to the throat a lot more. Course that could just be that my practice partner for most of the night was working on fleches.

After a couple hours of use my initial impressions are very favorable. Hard to argue with lighter weight, more air circulation and a longer life (due to the easy replacement/washing of the bib. More detailed info to come after I use it for a week or so...

brtech · 07-11-2007, 02:13 PM

Ah, but the best thing is, when the FIE announces the rule change that bib in foil becomes target, you put the sabre bib in the foil X-Change, and presto changeo, you are legal again. Well, depending on how the rule is written I guess

I still haven't quite figured out how they are going to do the mask cord, but I expect at least we'll need a tab on the lame, but that's a quick fix.

DonnaP · 07-11-2007, 08:46 PM

I have the saber exchange bib system and love it. I like the extra view from the sides. Have had it for about two years now and it's passed every NAC and SN armory inspection. Plus the insides come out and are washable which is great!!

KD5MDK · 07-12-2007, 12:56 AM

Just remember to buy an extra bib and bring it with you. If your bib for whatever fails at a tournament, you don't want to rely on a vendor having one available for sale.

Alex_Paul · 07-12-2007, 05:08 AM

The new chin and forhead padding uses the same attachments as the stuff from the older x change mask. We will probably keep selling two types, the new streame lined stuff for good air flow and the older thicker stuff that gives the mask a more traditional feel.

The bib should be 10 cm we went conservative as it is difficult to define where the "bib" starts, do you measure from inside the extrusion (channel) where the actual material starts inside the metal or from where it comes out of the extrusion? Needless to say FIE rules are wooly and with the rules on covering target in foil being the issue of the month for the FIE we went for conservative rather than pushing our luck.

The bib has the same layers as our regular FIE so the protection from throat hits should be the same.

The DO feel wierd at first as they are a lot lighter and they are in contact with much less of your head. Also the rubber band around the circumference is much slimmer which is why as someone pointed out you can see peoples faces clearly when thery are silouetted.

fencerbill · 07-12-2007, 10:47 AM

It has been put forward that the same X-change mask could be used for Epee and Sabre by x-changing the bibs. Could anything be done to make it suitable for Foil or would you have the insulate the whole cage from the fencer to satisfy the so-called insulated mask for Foil rule. LP care to comment?

Alex_Paul · 07-12-2007, 11:40 AM

at the moment the bibs are different and use a different angle on the bit they attach to. The Foil epee one is a less accute angle so the bib contours to the body better. The Sabre will fall into line with this new design before x mas and so there will be a new sabre bib. We will of course continue to make the old shaped bib.

I don't think you can get around the insulation on the mask for foil and IIRC the rule about insulation stands for epee as well ( I may be wrong!).

fencerbill · 07-12-2007, 11:50 AM

From an armorer's viewpoint, the insulation is pretty much gone after a few days of fencing anyway.

I don't know why there would be an insulation requirement for Epee masks. Everyone just assumes you use the same mask for both.

Alex_Paul · 07-12-2007, 12:26 PM

most insulation is gone in a few days because paint is used, if you use nylon it lasts significantly better but yes, I agree it is all a little pointless...

MyrddinsPrecint · 07-12-2007, 12:26 PM

In the (USFA) rules, there isn't a statement that the mesh must be insulated, it just says (and i'm not looking it up right now, so i'm paraphrasing) that the mesh can't be made of something slippery that makes it harder to actually land a touch.

Uninsulated Metal may theoretically be considered such a substance.

KD5MDK · 07-12-2007, 12:26 PM

There is no insulation requirement in epee. When sabre masks are ruled unacceptable for epee use, the proper justification is that a hit to the lame can short out the tip to the barrel (assuming you're not using a box with independent grounds).

MyrddinsPrecint · 07-12-2007, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

There is no insulation requirement in epee. When sabre masks are ruled unacceptable for epee use, the proper justification is that a hit to the lame can short out the tip to the barrel (assuming you're not using a box with independent grounds).

The mesh can do that too, though. It's just a little harder.

dekko · 07-12-2007, 04:41 PM

Just curious, if there is a rule change and the bib becomes target would it be legal to use the f/e version with the sabre bib?

On the surface seems to work but from what I understand of the potantial rule, the whole bib would not be target just the lower part.

Anyway, would it be legal?

HDG · 07-12-2007, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dekko

Just curious, if there is a rule change and the bib becomes target would it be legal to use the f/e version with the sabre bib?

On the surface seems to work but from what I understand of the potantial rule, the whole bib would not be target just the lower part.

Anyway, would it be legal?

Already answered

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex_Paul

at the moment the bibs are different and use a different angle on the bit they attach to. The Foil epee one is a less accute angle so the bib contours to the body better. The Sabre will fall into line with this new design before x mas and so there will be a new sabre bib. We will of course continue to make the old shaped bib.

Purple Fencer · 07-12-2007, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

The mesh can do that too, though. It's just a little harder.

That would be a bit difficult...you'd have to have the mesh in contact with the blade as or before teh spring makes contact in the tip....very possible to do if you catch the fold of a flexible bib....not so much when it's a fairly rigid bit o' steel!

So yeah...I could see a sabre Xchange mask with a foil bib as legal for epee...

Now waiting for a more experienced armorer to shoot me down in flames....Donald?