Coaches bias towards certain weapon(s)

[lemon__fresh]

In the past I have encountered coaches who are biased towards a certain weapon(s) and end up passing this bias onto their students

I for one think this is very unfair for the student.It keeps them from trying all the weapons themselves and generating their own opinions

The student might really enjoy/be good with said weapon, but will probably never know due to the strong bias imposed by the coach, which im assuming the student looks up to and values the opinions of

Just wondering about ppls opinions on the matter

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Not all coaches have backgrounds in all weapons. And people who really don't understand a weapon can often do more damage than good.

What gets interesting is college teams, where a coach may or may not fully understand all three weapons, but is forced to do so if his/her students are to fully participate in local conferences...... And so truly odd fencers are born........

[lemon__fresh]

lol (yes quite odd)

but what about the coaches who KNOW all three weapons well, yet pass their personal biases on to their students perhaps even unitentionally

[Wafath]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

Not all coaches have backgrounds in all weapons. And people who really don't understand a weapon can often do more damage than good.

Absolutely.

However, in an interesting counter-example, one former mid-Atlantic collegiate coach remarked that his fencers in his off weapons did better than his fencers in his favorite weapon. He suggested that this was because he focused on core skills for his off weapons, because that was all he knew how to teach, but in his weapon, he tried to teach them a lot of advanced techniques.

W

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by lemon__fresh

lol (yes quite odd)

but what about the coaches who KNOW all three weapons well, yet pass their personal biases on to their students perhaps even unitentionally

There is always a weapon a coach teaches better. Or, at the very least, a weapon a coach doesn't teach as well. There is nothing wrong with a coach pushing the weapon he/she's better at.

It's, in fact, quite logical to try to push sabre on a crowd of people if your club only does sabre and you want to continue to make money. It's of course better if you have decent coaches in all three weapons available at a club, so that you can allow everyone to make their own decision without it affecting your pocket quite so directly, but that's not always possible.

If someone dislikes a weapon to the point of a bias against it, intentional or unintentional, they do not know it as well as the other weapons.

Personally, I ran into the other problem. When I was considering switching, the THREE coaches it affected all avoided any sort of firm viewpoint on the issue as to not unintentionally push me into a decision. Having opinions isn't always bad, and really can be useful at times.....

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by Wafath

Absolutely.

However, in an interesting counter-example, one former mid-Atlantic collegiate coach remarked that his fencers in his off weapons did better than his fencers in his favorite weapon. He suggested that this was because he focused on core skills for his off weapons, because that was all he knew how to teach, but in his weapon, he tried to teach them a lot of advanced techniques.

W

You run into bigger problems when the people in your off-est weapon are the most experienced of the group, and were the best on basics coming in : (


(Of course, I still have no point control, so there's still stuff for me to learn this year.....)

[darius]

Whatever.

Every coach has their view of what fencing is, to them. They choose to foster that in their students; if that makes for a one-weapon club, or an anti-boredom bias (no epee), or an anti-ROW bias, that's perfectly fine.

If the students travel, they'll eventually see other weapons. If those weapons call them, the students can seek out other opportunities.

darius

[Peach]

I coach only sabre in my little club because I shouldn't be allowed to coach foil or epee. No, really. When one of my students shows a distinct aptitude for another weapon, I suggest strongly to him that he go to my own home club for coaching. This has result in mild hurt feelings, but really it's all for the better.

The main coach of my home club, although he understands foil and epee in thorough and intuitive depth, understands sabre only intellectually. This means that as his student I have to process his lessons and suggestions through a transforming lens of the differing time, length of phrase, distance, speed of action, common habits, refereeing conventions, and rules of my primary weapon. Luckily, it is a club large enough that I can also work with a sabre coach on these things, and even more luckily sabre is small enough in our club that my sabre coach can give me plenty of attention.

The down side of having the owner primarily a foil-and-epee person is sabre is not always his first choice of weapon to recommend to a strong student. For quite a long while the sabre students were few and flaky. That has improved over the years, thank heavens.

Since he's a great coach, and has developed a strong club with many good assistant coaches, and since I really like the people at my club, it really hasn't been an issue for me, and I can't argue with the results I've gotten.

[lemon__fresh]

good points

aside: these forums rock! helpin me make it through a summer devoid of fencing

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Originally Posted by Peach

For quite a long while the sabre students were few and flaky.

The Few. The Flaky. The Fencers.

[HDG]

It's only bias when you don't share their preference.

[lemon__fresh]

i dont think coaches should go around telling(or implying) their students that one weapon(s) is better than the others

[oso97]

Originally Posted by lemon__fresh

i dont think coaches should go around telling(or implying) their students that one weapon(s) is better than the others

Myself, I find the truth refreshing....

[lemon__fresh]

i think im the odd man out

[griffindm]

Originally Posted by lemon__fresh

i dont think coaches should go around telling(or implying) their students that one weapon(s) is better than the others

I'm sure if you spend any time in these fora, you will see that EVERYONE (ok, almost everyone) pokes some fun at the "off" weapons (meaning any one that they do not fence regularly, or won't admit to :>).

This happens in the salle as well. Even coaches are not immune to this.

That said, it is often, but not always, tongue-in-cheek. We have our preferences, but we generally recognize the validity of someone else's choices and points of view. As has already been stressed above, coaches generally have a weapon or two that they focus upon. They will often try to pull promising students in those directions.

The student usually figures out for themselves where their preferences are.

[lemon__fresh]

yea well i know saber is the best weapon, but the coaches dont have to go around telling every1 that, otherwise there would be no1 to fence the other two

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Peach

For quite a long while the sabre students were few and flaky. That has improved over the years, thank heavens.

Yeah, now there're LOTS of flaky sabre students... :)

-B

[Peach]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Yeah, now there're LOTS of flaky sabre students...

-B

Yes, thank goodness. Now I don't stand out.

[KD5MDK]

yea well i know saber is the best weapon, but the coaches dont have to go around telling every1 that, otherwise there would be no1 to fence the other two

What a shame. Oh right, that's where my income comes from.

[qatet]

As I understand it, there is a great deal of debate going on in the USFCA about whether or not they should award a Maestro's degree to single-weapon coaches (currently to become a Maestro you must demonstrate high-level skill in all three weapons). The theory is that it is, indeed, unfair to your students to force them into a weapon that is not really their own. Also, a good coach can develop ideas from one weapon to carry over to other weapons.

Is there still a bias? Sure. I train at the same club that Peach does (just in case anybody doesn't yet know that), and I would say that our coach's prejudices are not merely towards pointy weapons, but instead towards epee. The ideas translate a bit better to foil than they do to sabre, but it still takes some work and occasionally builds problematic habits before the kinks can be worked out.