Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

FenceForFun · 07-10-2007, 10:50 AM

Does anyone have any experience with Estoc screwless foil points? They seem to be new and sold by just one distributor in the US (Sword-Master).

KD5MDK · 07-10-2007, 11:35 AM

Anything made by Estoc is only sold by Sword-Masters, as far as I know. I believe they have an exclusive deal.

erik_blank · 07-10-2007, 12:40 PM

I don't have any experience with the, but from the picture and description of the product, it looks like a nice system. I wonder about locking the top of the barrel to the bottom though. Since I am assuming they rely on an electrical connection at the thread interface I would guess that you can't use Lock Tite™ on the barrel.

courtneyp · 07-10-2007, 12:51 PM

I haven't used the foil points, but I have used the Estoc screwless epee points and I heartily recommend those. I'd hope the quality would be the same.

CvilleFencer · 07-10-2007, 01:08 PM

Do keep in mind there is a push in the FIE to make these illegal for competition and that the USFA may follow suit. Not saying it is likely to happen, but some new technical proposals seemed aimed squarely at these tips.

All that said, chances are those rules will not trickle down to US fencing for a while even if they do get adopted, so no reason not the try a couple. I would love to hear about your experience with them. Actually I think I will get a couple myself and try them out. I am way to much of a gear geek...

Purple Fencer · 07-10-2007, 01:32 PM

Unfortunately, that FIE ruking DID get passed....so until Mr. Dos Santos decides he likes them, the estocs and other screwless designs -- including the Zip Tips -- ARE now illegal for FIE tourneys. Hopefully the USFA will not pass on this absurdity.

As for use of the tips themselves...I've not seen them coming loose that much. My major complaints are I often have to cut teh contact spring shorter because there's not enough depth to screw it on enough to pass the shim test. Also, you have to fully tighten the tip to truly get an accurate shim test...it may pass when it;s finger tightm then fail when it's cranked down...

CvilleFencer · 07-10-2007, 01:46 PM

Wow, thanks for the heads up Purple. I had not heard that those rules had been passed. It will be interesting to see how that all plays out. Note that the OP was talking about the new FOIL points from Estoc. Maybe you were thinking of the epee points? My understanding of the foil points is that they work a little bit different. HERE is a link to the pick of them for those interested. Pretty cool in theory!

KD5MDK · 07-10-2007, 02:17 PM

They may work differently, but the FIE rule change applies to them as well. See:

Quote:

Equipment and Checking of Weapons
5. a) At foil and épée, only traditional or homologated pointes d'arrêt
are accepted. No other kind of pointe d'arrêt, notably new ones
that are not homologated, will be accepted at the weapon control.
In order to make the identification easier, please note that a traditional
pointe d'arrêt has two screws to fix the tip of the pointe
d'arrêt to the base, the whole is in metal and there is no plastic in
the base.
To make the checking of weapons easier and allow the complete
observation of the tip and its base, foil fencers are requested to
present their foils with bare points not covered with adhesive
tape over the first 15cm.

CvilleFencer · 07-10-2007, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

They may work differently, but the FIE rule change applies to them as well. See:

No question there. I just wanted to make it clear these were the new foil points as opposed to the epee points that have been in play for years and that they work under a slightly different principal than the epee points with the way the spring is (or is not, actually) secured.

noodle · 07-10-2007, 04:33 PM

nice. i think i'm going to buy one in order to work on my new official side project, as it looks like it'd be a good base: foil tip built with piezoelectric sensor, solid state foil tip. for fun, to see if its possible.

eac · 07-10-2007, 04:38 PM

I tried out the Estoc screwless tips last year, and had a horrible time; all three tips popped out after only a few practices, apparently because the tip is on a long stick that sticks way into the barrel, and hitting remotely sideways bends said stick, which breaks it easily. Now I only use normal Uhlmann tips.

erik_blank · 07-11-2007, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noodle

nice. i think i'm going to buy one in order to work on my new official side project, as it looks like it'd be a good base: foil tip built with piezoelectric sensor, solid state foil tip. for fun, to see if its possible.

I guess that this would do better on halfbaked.com but your mention of a solid state fencing tip made me think of the RFID tag systems. Put a rfid chip in the point and have a very low level rf signal coming from the lame. tip depression allows for the chip to be activated, gets its power from the lame's rf signal and transmitts to the scoring machine.
Let's add MORE complexity to the system!!!

KD5MDK · 07-12-2007, 12:30 AM

I have my doubts about all non-steel designs that are intended to sustain thousands of hard impacts at a economical price. It just seems like a very tough challenge.

Swordmaster · 07-24-2007, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Unfortunately, that FIE ruking DID get passed....so until Mr. Dos Santos decides he likes them, the estocs and other screwless designs -- including the Zip Tips -- ARE now illegal for FIE tourneys. Hopefully the USFA will not pass on this absurdity.

As for use of the tips themselves...I've not seen them coming loose that much. My major complaints are I often have to cut teh contact spring shorter because there's not enough depth to screw it on enough to pass the shim test. Also, you have to fully tighten the tip to truly get an accurate shim test...it may pass when it;s finger tightm then fail when it's cranked down...

Sam,
This "ruling" was derived from a document that was put out by Jose Eduardo Dos Santos, the President of the SEMI Commission. If you notice it is listed in the newest FIE rulebook (May 2007) under M5.5 in a section pertaining to the Guard(?). Both the Italian and French "Screw-less" points (epee and foil) have been homologated by the SEMI commission under the previous President Marcello Biacco. Schermasport (the Italian manufacturer) has points that actually have 4 screws at equidistant from each other. If you notice, in the document Señor Dos Santos states, "...notable new ones that are not homologated." If The current President is going to start reversing the homologation of previously approved equipment, where will it stop? It is also in conflict with M11, the rule that actually pertains to foil points. Where it states that "the tip of point d'arrêt must be afixed in AT LEAST two places equidistant from each other or by any other method which has been approved by the SEMI Committee of the FIE
I have spoken with both manufacturers about their homologation and neither seemed to be very concerned about Señor Dos Santos' document, but now that the rulebook has been changed we will see what they have to say. I have emailed Dan DeChaine, the US Representative on the SEMI Commission, to asks for his opinion and advice. It appears to have been pointed at the "ZIP" tip but it could encompass much more. Of course there are those who will take anything out of context and try to bend the rules in their favor.

As far as the statement concerning the adjustment of the EPEE Point, At times you do have to cut a ring off of the contact spring to facilitate proper adjustment of the tip for the small shim. Since the tip is primarily designed around a French point, the contact spring is supposed to "stack up"against the plastic insulating ring.
Here is a tip for those of you who are working on these points...After you get the contact spring trimmed and adjusted to pass the shim test, put a tiny drop of super glue right where the spring contacts the plastic insulator - being careful not to glue the stem into the barrel of the tip and not enough to get the glue on the contact surface of the spring (if you do you can take that off with a few brushes across some sand paper) - Then allow the glue to dry in a horizontal position or hit it with a little accelerator. This will keep the spring in adjustment and help lock the plastic insulator in place.
As far as the foil point adjustment, there are none. You simply wire the base onto the blade, insert the spring and tighten the tip onto the base....

Quote:

Originally Posted by eac

...because the tip is on a long stick that sticks way into the barrel, and hitting remotely sideways bends said stick, which breaks it easily...

There were some issues of the tip being putted apart where it enters the assembly, but this was addressed by securing the keeper ring to the post. The "stick" (post) is not being bent, it is being pulled out - usually by catching it on the edge of the blade. This is an action that some fencers are able to avoid, while other are not. I have found that fencers that dent their German barrels by parrying with the tip are usually the ones who have this problem with the Estoc point.
If anyone has any further question about this or any other Estoc equipment, please don't hesitate to email me or call. I infrequently check this forum so posting here will not get my attention.
Thanks!