07-09-2007, 03:52 PM
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#1 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: George Mason Univesity and NJ
Posts: 470
| "sanctioned" event gone horribly wrong...
A few weeks ago I attended an event that was disappointing to say the least.
It was the latest in a series of "underground" foil events from a specific club that are in no way publicized, not posted on AskFred, and attend primarily by members of said club. I will not mention the name of the club, because they are a very accredited club that has produced many great fencers. These events are all sanctioned, and give out ratings. For months we have seen unusual and inflated ratings coming out of these events. One of my club-mates found out the date and time of one of these, so myself and 4 of our club-mates all attended it.
With the approximately 20 people there, the 5 of us were the only ones not from the host club. The event did not even come close to following USFA regulations. The 5 of us were the only ones wearing a full uniform. Some people were wearing athletic pants, but most people were wearing SHORTS along with their jacket, lame, and plastron. I asked the tournament organizer about this, and he said it was totally ok and fine. Also, fencers were allowed to fence with dead spots on their lame so long as they were "honest about it."
The event was totally self directed until the semi-finals, and finals. There were many blatant calls that went for their fellow club-mates. The "refs" would sit in a chair or on the floor having a conversation during the bout while they "reffed." When I questioned a call, there would be the "ref" and 3 other people defending the call. Multiple times, the ref would not know the action, and would poll the 2 people sitting on either side of them before making the call. There were no weights, and no timers being used until the round of 4. This drastically effects the very basics of fencing. In DE bouts this meant that there were no breaks what so ever. It was a strait race to 15 points with no breaks, and no ending time. I would guess that one of the DE bouts that I fenced was approximately 12-15 minutes of fencing time, but I can't say for sure.
Needless to say, it is unfair that ratings are being given out at events like this. I do not know who to get in contact with so that these stop being allowed to give out ratings. I would just contact the chair of the division, but the division of said club is very small. This club may be the only club in the division, and I do not know of any officer not affiliated with the club. Who at the USFA should be contacted?
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|  | | And now for this message... |
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07-09-2007, 04:00 PM
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#2 | | The Judge
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,324
| i would just drop an email to the basic USFA addresses, explaining the general situation so they know who to direct the email/inquiry to. i'm sure you'll get directed to the correct person to handle such things. | 
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07-09-2007, 05:13 PM
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#3 | | Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 10,177
| Sounds like a very interesting situation. At least the tournament happened, that's ahead of some. | |
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07-09-2007, 05:35 PM
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#4 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Live in Maine...Fence in New Hampshire
Posts: 1,289
| Quote:
Originally Posted by KD5MDK  Sounds like a very interesting situation. At least the tournament happened, that's ahead of some. | Why? Has anyone here heard of "phantom" competitions happening for the purpose of generating ratings? | |
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07-09-2007, 05:42 PM
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#5 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: South Carolina über Alles
Posts: 2,608
| For a period of time, but then the USFA and the NC/SC division put a stop to them.
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RebelFencer's Awesome Quote of the Week:
"Encouraging the average age of first intercourse to go below 16?"
-Army Fencer
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07-09-2007, 06:05 PM
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#6 | | Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 10,177
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Beloit Fencer of Old Why? Has anyone here heard of "phantom" competitions happening for the purpose of generating ratings? | The ones I heard about came from upstate NY at the time. | |
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07-09-2007, 07:35 PM
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#7 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005 Location: Over there -->
Posts: 3,873
| That's just not right. I'm sure if you send the USFA an email, they'll do something about it. | |
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07-09-2007, 07:38 PM
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#8 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Hall School, Wellesely, MA
Posts: 3,821
| Quote:
Originally Posted by KD5MDK The ones I heard about came from upstate NY at the time. | And then the offender moved to NC....
different division, same person.
-m | |
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07-09-2007, 07:55 PM
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#9 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 531
| Contact me via private message. My wife is currently running for chair of the NJ division and if this is happening it needs to stop.
R | |
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07-09-2007, 08:10 PM
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#10 | | Yes We Did
Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,163
| Quote:
Originally Posted by catwood1 I will not mention the name of the club, because they are a very accredited club that has produced many great fencers. | Why the hell not? This thread isn't going to be any fun without naming names. | |
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07-09-2007, 10:29 PM
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#11 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: South Carolina über Alles
Posts: 2,608
| Quote:
Originally Posted by epeemike81 And then the offender moved to NC....
different division, same person.
-m | Way to steal my joke. 
__________________
RebelFencer's Awesome Quote of the Week:
"Encouraging the average age of first intercourse to go below 16?"
-Army Fencer
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07-09-2007, 10:50 PM
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#12 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Pacoima, ca USA
Posts: 5,991
| Quote:
Originally Posted by catwood1 A few weeks ago I attended an event that was disappointing to say the least.
It was the latest in a series of "underground" foil events from a specific club that are in no way publicized, not posted on AskFred, and attend primarily by members of said club. I will not mention the name of the club, because they are a very accredited club that has produced many great fencers. These events are all sanctioned, and give out ratings. For months we have seen unusual and inflated ratings coming out of these events. One of my club-mates found out the date and time of one of these, so myself and 4 of our club-mates all attended it.
With the approximately 20 people there, the 5 of us were the only ones not from the host club. The event did not even come close to following USFA regulations. The 5 of us were the only ones wearing a full uniform. Some people were wearing athletic pants, but most people were wearing SHORTS along with their jacket, lame, and plastron. I asked the tournament organizer about this, and he said it was totally ok and fine. Also, fencers were allowed to fence with dead spots on their lame so long as they were "honest about it."
The event was totally self directed until the semi-finals, and finals. There were many blatant calls that went for their fellow club-mates. The "refs" would sit in a chair or on the floor having a conversation during the bout while they "reffed." When I questioned a call, there would be the "ref" and 3 other people defending the call. Multiple times, the ref would not know the action, and would poll the 2 people sitting on either side of them before making the call. There were no weights, and no timers being used until the round of 4. This drastically effects the very basics of fencing. In DE bouts this meant that there were no breaks what so ever. It was a strait race to 15 points with no breaks, and no ending time. I would guess that one of the DE bouts that I fenced was approximately 12-15 minutes of fencing time, but I can't say for sure.
Needless to say, it is unfair that ratings are being given out at events like this. I do not know who to get in contact with so that these stop being allowed to give out ratings. I would just contact the chair of the division, but the division of said club is very small. This club may be the only club in the division, and I do not know of any officer not affiliated with the club. Who at the USFA should be contacted? | If this doesn't follow USFA rules, how in the world can it be sanctioned to pass out ratings??? i agree this needs to be reported to USFA.
SwordPlay used to hold in-house events every Wednesday for a year or two...we may not have done weight testing or the like, but we ran full pool/DE format andf ran it like we'd see at an actual event...and we never tried to pass out ratings (if we had, there would've been several D foilists right away) | |
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07-09-2007, 11:01 PM
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#13 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 109
| Well we had an out of shape individual from a very competitive section tranasfer to the SE Section and use a very small Division to qualify for her events at SN.
She was pushy, out of shape as she sucked wind(and admitted it), berrated referres but kept stateing " I have done what I wanted too.. qualified for the SN//sorry for my attitude but I am a USFA REf and know the the ...I just cannot help myself" barf
She had a local heavy weight back her. He explained how we would benefit by her association. Amazing! She no longer is in our Division and/or Section? Tenure? About Two months. | |
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07-09-2007, 11:10 PM
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#14 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Pennsauken, NJ
Posts: 8,951
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Shellhouse Contact me via private message. My wife is currently running for chair of the NJ division and if this is happening it needs to stop. | Quote:
Originally Posted by catwood1 I would just contact the chair of the division, but the division of said club is very small. This club may be the only club in the division, and I do not know of any officer not affiliated with the club. | Rick- Somehow I doubt that catwood is referring to the NJ Division. I seem to remember it being fairly clear that you have more than one club. And I'm not sure the division can fairly be described as "very small".
-B
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"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
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07-09-2007, 11:40 PM
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#15 | | Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 10,177
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Fencer If this doesn't follow USFA rules, how in the world can it be sanctioned to pass out ratings??? i agree this needs to be reported to USFA. | Because sanctioning is done by Divisions, and while the National office can desanction an event or tournament if it has reason to believe the rules were not followed, in general it will trust the Division submitting the results to be responsible. | |
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07-10-2007, 12:12 AM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Pacoima, ca USA
Posts: 5,991
| Quote:
Originally Posted by KD5MDK Because sanctioning is done by Divisions, and while the National office can desanction an event or tournament if it has reason to believe the rules were not followed, in general it will trust the Division submitting the results to be responsible. | Well if the original post is accurate, responsible is not the word I would use... | |
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07-10-2007, 12:42 AM
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#17 | | Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 10,177
| I said the USFA generally trusts the Divisions to be responsible. I didn't say they actually were. | |
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07-10-2007, 11:39 AM
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#18 | | Epee fencing addict
Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Glenwood, ny
Posts: 2,302
| Organizations stage these kinds of tournaments to artifically inflate their members ratings are not doing their people or themselves any favors. Sure, they generate some ratings, but fencers that learn to compete in this kind of environment will be very unprepared when they venture out into the real world and enter a tournament where the rules are enforced. They set themselves up for failure before they even start fencing. Just trying to get in the door with the shoddy/insufficient equipment they are used to using will set the tone for a bad experience. Once they make it to the piste, they will find their rating of little value as they will be getting beaten by people with lower ratings but real skill and experience.
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I ain't as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was. - Toby Keith
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo | |
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07-10-2007, 12:52 PM
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#19 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 544
| Quote:
Originally Posted by parrythis Organizations stage these kinds of tournaments to artifically inflate their members ratings are not doing their people or themselves any favors. Sure, they generate some ratings, but fencers that learn to compete in this kind of environment will be very unprepared when they venture out into the real world and enter a tournament where the rules are enforced. They set themselves up for failure before they even start fencing. Just trying to get in the door with the shoddy/insufficient equipment they are used to using will set the tone for a bad experience. Once they make it to the piste, they will find their rating of little value as they will be getting beaten by people with lower ratings but real skill and experience. | I agree with you at one level, but then you have to realize that those people are not really being punished or are otherwise suffering for the behavior. In fact, they've gotten the reward they wanted: a higher rating. To heck with being "unprepared when they venture out into the real world." That might be a detriment to you or me, but not to the cheaters -- the inflated rating and false sense of esteem it generates is all that matters to them.
It's akin to the belief that evil people will recieve their just desserts when God passes judgment in the afterlife. A projection of Ultimate Justice is a trick to make us feel better about crap in the here-and-now. | |
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