Removing Rust from Lame's

[LordShout]

Sabre and foil lame's rust out, green neck band stains or back stains eventually form and reduce the conductivity leading to failure of the lame. This green is formed by copper(II) carbonate and copper(II) hydroxide. Copper(II) carbonate has an extremely low melting point, only 200 degrees C. copper(II) hydroxide decomposes at 185 degrees C into copper(II) oxide. Copper(II) oxide decomposes in the presence of hydrogen gas into Copper metal and and water.

I'm not saying or proposing that the average person can clean a lame in this manner but rather that its possible and to propose two methods for doing so, a dry method and wet method.

It is obvious that simply baking a lame to 200 degrees C (392 degrees F) is probably not a good idea, but easily doable. Once baked to 200 degrees C ( or higher) the carbonate would melt off the lame, if you have a large oven (such as found in some chem labs or commercial kitchens) you could hang your lame in this for a while to allow the carbonate to drip off. The hydroxide would of course decompose to oxide, at this point you simply would need to lower the temperature of the lame to room temperautre or slightly higher, place in a low humidity enviroment and introduce hydrogen gas to form copper and water, the water would evaporate and the copper is ok to leave on the lame. Alternativly one could use carbon monoxide instead of hydrogen, less risky in terms of explosions but doesn't involve producing water, although the water could be made to evaporate in such speed as to not matter. Given the resources of a reasonable equipped chem lab I would use carbon monoxide, if I were doing this at home I would stick to hydrogen gas.

The wet method requires much more in the way of equipment, but at the same time is much gentler on the lame. You need to create an enviroment of at least 200 degrees C. Water, of course, boils at 100 degrees C. Unless we alter the pressure, boiling water at one atm only requires a doubling of pressure to bring it to the neccessary 200 degrees C, water at room temperature requires approx 9.57 atm's to achieve 200 degrees C. Regardless of which combination of temperature and pressure used to achieve 200 degrees C once it has been achieved one would than have to either spin the system around like a washing machine or through some other method remove the carbonate from the lame. The hydroxide will have of course been reduced to oxide and can simply be cleaned off by the prior method (which would also dry the lame) or one could bubble either of the two aforementioned gases through the solution (once it was reduced in temperature and pressure) to bring about a further reduction to copper and a gas.

Of the two methods I think the first is easier, the second better but I can't think of a way to wash off the carbonate without expensive custom built equipment. Both methods would work, its a matter of expense versus ease of use.

[HDG]

What's the melting point of the insulation? The combustion (or melting) point of the croissard?

[fencerbill]

Forget it. Once metallic conductors are no longer connected in a circuit how do you again create continuoss conducting elements?

You don't get copper ions and molecules from stainless steel conductors. You do get a process of interruption of the network of conducting elements that eventually degrades net conductivity below a margin. It's called wearing out.

Prevent the transformation of the copper metallic conductors. Rinse out the sweat. Extend life as long as possible.

Leave the chemistry to the chemists.

[LordShout]

I want to clean the green off, nothing more. This is a sample method of removing the green from the lame. The fact that it produces copper solid is incidental, it could be washed off but as its not hurting anything I don't see the point. In any event this was more of an interesting thought expirement on how one would go about removing the green if one wanted to.

Practical? Not really, although my club does have several lames that are perfectly good excepting for green spots produced by poor storage, perhaps in that case it would be useful.

[betty]

[quote=LordShout;574376]I want to clean the green off, nothing more.

Fencing= sweat! Can’t escape it. The salt in our sweat will corrode the lame in time but because $$ don’t grow in my backyard I found a way to help a lame look cleaner, smell better and live longer:

First basic care: hanging up or lay on a dry surface (your hotel chair or bed) the lame each time after a day of fencing and not leave the sweaty lame rolled up in a mask until the next work out.
Once in a while dunk it in a sink or bucket in a mix of cold water + a little of a very mild liquid detergent (the Woolite kind) and a suspicion of ammonia. Rinse it in clear cold water. No rubbing like you do with regular cotton but just dunking. No twisting either. Hang it up to drip and dry on a plastic or wooden hanger.
If you don’t have ammonia at hand, some ammonia-based Windex will do.

When your lame is dying, clean it and keep it to cut out patches out of it for the next lame.

Forget all of the above if you are filthy rich and go and get yourself a new lame 3 or 4 times a year.

For all, rich and not so rich: lames never go in washing machines or dryers!

[HDG]

Originally Posted by betty

Once in a while dunk it in a sink or bucket in a mix of cold water + a little of a very mild liquid detergent (the Woolite kind) and a suspicion of ammonia.

How much is that?

[catwood1]

for all, rich and not so rich: lames never go in washing machines or dryers!

Well those fancy machine washable ones do

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by catwood1

Well those fancy machine washable ones do

No they don't.

[catwood1]

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

No they don't.

well not in the dryer, but they go in the washing machine. Why not?

[HDG]

Originally Posted by catwood1

well not in the dryer, but they go in the washing machine. Why not?

They can be machine washed, but why subject them to the additional wear and tear?

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by HDG

How much is that?

I would interpret it as a thimble full.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by LordShout

my club does have several lames that are perfectly good excepting for green spots produced by poor storage, perhaps in that case it would be useful.

Has an armorer checked these "perfectly good" Lames? After testing literally thousands of Lames I have come to the conclusion that if there are green stains, the Lame is probably bad.

[LordShout]

I've tested them, basically they are new lames that had a sweaty sabre cuff on part of them for a few days (Or some other similar travesty of equipment storage.) I've got to many fencers, to little room and not enough time to ensure that stuff like that doesn't happen.

[betty]

Originally Posted by HDG

How much is that?

about 1 tablespoon of ammonia, but if you use Windex, you could spray some directly on the lame and then rinse after a few minutes.

[betty]

Originally Posted by catwood1

well not in the dryer, but they go in the washing machine. Why not?

May be they do go in the washing machine, but I wouldn't take the risk. At least it should be only with the "soaking cycle" because I would suspect that the speedy spinning of a washing machine might not be too friendly to a lame fiber.

[betty]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

Has an armorer checked these "perfectly good" Lames? After testing literally thousands of Lames I have come to the conclusion that if there are green stains, the Lame is probably bad.

Again: try to spray some Windex (ammonia based) on the green spots and rinse in cold water, then hang to drip and dry.

[DonnaP]

I was able to remove the "green" oxidation with a product called CLR (calcium, lime, rust remover) available at many stores. Did not seem to harm the lame?? I only spot treated the collar and sleeves though.

[KD5MDK]

Have the resistance checked by someone who knows how. If it's still below 5 ohms I wouldn't worry about it.