Veteran tournaments--how to draw fencers?

[Peach]

I was talking to Jeff Salmon from Mission Fencing in Long Island last week, and he said he was thinking of putting on a veteran tournament or two next year, one possibly in September. He asked me what would draw veterans to an event, and I gave him some suggestions off the top of my head. This is not a new topic of discussion, as we vets often discuss such things when we get together. Bill Hall's Veteran Challenge is to me the epitome of a good veteran event--opportunities to fence individually and on teams, excellent food, a cool T-shirt, nice awards, funny "prizes," and a chance to spend time with friends and significant others. However, Jeff raised some other questions:

1. If you have age group events and don't have the space or time for the regular 40-49. 50-59, and 60+ groups, what's the best combination? I suggested 40-49 and 50+ because the 40s are still really athletic (I called them "kids." I apologize ) Would some other age groups make sense?

2. How to do team events? I liked what Bill did at one point, which was to have a cumulative age requirement for teams--I think men's teams had to total 150, while women had a lower combined age total. I actually enjoyed the mixed-gender team events but they didn't seem to keep going.

3. What should you offer in the way of extra stuff and how much should you charge? I said veterans had money and didn't mind spending it, so a higher registration fee wouldn't be out of line as long as there were good t-shirts, good food, and nice medals etc.

4. How should you advertise, and to whom? I said the earlier the better because many of us had jobs and had to schedule way ahead of time if he wanted a good turnout. But where should you post flyers and who should you get in touch with? I said to Jeff that many clubs have only a handful of veterans at most, so we're pretty scattered.

5. What would the best schedule be? Jeff didn't want to conflict with the Veteran Challenge, though I don't know if Bill is doing it any more. I said no later than November if you're doing just one (the December NAC is usually the first or second weekend in December) and no later than February or mid-June if you're doing two, because of the Div II/II/Vets NAC in March and because of Summer Nationals.

6. I did warn him of the first-time problem if you have on-line registration that people wait to register in order to see who's coming, and then don't come because everyone is waiting to register.

What do you think makes for a good veteran tournament?

[fencerbill]

We will have Vets Challenge Sep 29-30, 2007 but it may be the last.

LI would be an excellent location. We get half of our participants from outside of New England now.

You have to proselytize. We maintain a mailing list of everyone who has previously participated, which I can pass on. We have been much better in past years in having handouts at the Vets Quals and SN. One year we mailed to every club in North Atlantic, Metro and Mid Atlantic Sections. We haven't yet put ads in American Fencing because we can't get our act to gether in time.

You need a minimum of ten strips to get 6 individual and 6 team events in one weekend. We are very proactive in encouraging fencers to put teams together at the time they start, as Peach well knows.

If you have age groups you face missing the minimums to earn ratings, which have seemed to be important to us Vets in past years. We have age awards, could perhaps amplify on that. Room for innovation.

One problem for scheduling is that in having clubs for venues, how do you do it and avoid the Saturday class conflicts which are what most clubs live on. Having an available High School is an alternate but you would than need 3 basketball courts.

I think the meal (with free wine and beer) is almost more of a motivator than the T-shirts, but the shirts are good for later advertising.

We had to phase out the mixed gender teams because of multiple events at the same time conflicts. We have stalwarts like Rick Estes and Rod Meagher (Wicked Cool) who almost every year have fenced 3 team and 3 individual events. Having both Men and Women with competing calls to strips slowed things down just too much.

Remember the motto of Vets Fencing: We have fun but we do keep score.

[Peach]

Good feedback. And thanks for the dates--Jeff was anxious not to conflict with your event, and I needed to know the date of the Vet Challenge so I can plan my own travel

[fencerbill]

I am inordinately interested in some odd things.

Vets Mens Epee 40-49 was 5 bodies and 1 B short of being an A4 event.

Vets Mens Epee 50-59 was 9 bodies, 1 B and 4 C's short of also being an A4 event.

Even Vets Mens Epee 60 Plus was an A2 event with 5 A's.

Let's hit a couple of A4 events next year.

[Peach]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

I am inordinately interested in some odd things.

Vets Mens Epee 40-49 was 5 bodies and 1 B short of being an A4 event.

Vets Mens Epee 50-59 was 9 bodies, 1 B and 4 C's short of also being an A4 event.

Even Vets Mens Epee 60 Plus was an A2 event with 5 A's.

Let's hit a couple of A4 events next year.

I just now noticed that the WS, for a change, was (just barely) a B1 so I should have renewed the darn B. I've been waiting and waiting to age into Division II!

[chefencer]

I don't really know anything - my only qualification being that I'm old enough to attend, but I agree with your answers. The emphasis should be on the things that make a Vet event different: opportunity to socialize (evening meal etc.) with grown-ups, unusual swag and as many chances to fence as possible. Considering the few chances Vets have to earn ratings against other Vets, I think bigger/combined events are more appealing.

I look forward to hearing more!

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Peach

I just now noticed that the WS, for a change, was (just barely) a B1 so I should have renewed the darn B. I've been waiting and waiting to age into Division II!

Vets fencer's attitudes about the passage of years are truly weird.

[Peach]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

Vets fencer's attitudes about the passage of years are truly weird.

Hee hee--in the medals ceremony, a couple of the vet-50 women were even coy about how long they had been fencing. Bizarre.

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--Getting off the computer now. No, really. Any moment now.

[theLuz]

Originally Posted by Peach

Hee hee--in the medals ceremony, a couple of the vet-50 women were even coy about how long they had been fencing. Bizarre.

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--Getting off the computer now. No, really. Any moment now.

I was fencing in a very young club in San Diego recently, when a young girl asked me how long I'd been fencing. I thought and asked how old her dad was. Then I said, "older than that......"

[Inquartata]

Drat, Bill, I was thinking seriously of coming this year...but with the World C in early September I don't know if I'll be able to get away just a couple of weeks later...

[qatet]

Not really about promotion, but a suggestion from the ref corps - get a mix of experienced and developing refs. You guys certainly need people who are willing to pull out every single one of those cards that you need (I believe that oiuyt gave a whopping twenty cards in one pool today!). But you also (rightly) frequently point out how frustrating it is to have the developmental refs at point events. Reffing vet events is a bit different from reffing other events. Give the less experienced refs a chance to get used to it in a setting where it doesn't matter.

[introspective]

I like your question about Team Events and I hope some of the more experienced fencers help you out with this. But what I have noticed in the past and I really tried to absorb as much as possible; was that teams generally help boost each other - that's the purpose of creating a "Team" in the first place. I noticed that teams usually have the same amount of people as a typical pool with one person as a 'stand in' [I was my teams stand in in Texas in 1980? thereabouts anyway]. They generally keep a few top fencers in a Team, with medium fencers and a few younger team members who show promise and the team works together in the same pool for a while to help the new member do well and maybe get their letter later on. I was lucky as the 'stand in' or 'extra' team member I could fill in for a top fencer when they got tired and couldn't fence anymore and earn some points for the group, giving the top fencer a rest and then they can get back into the game later on. That's all I know unless I can remember anything else. Oh, if you have a big group of vets, you might want to compose a few teams and see how they work together.

I just saw gatet's post and I agree 100%

[JEC]

Originally Posted by qatet

... in a setting where it doesn't matter.

You might not be aware but it matters to us, Vet fencers, a lot.

[qatet]

Originally Posted by JEC

You might not be aware but it matters to us, Vet fencers, a lot.

Ummm, what I meant was to get used to the peculiarities of Vet fencing in a situation where points aren't on the line. Thought I made that clear, but perhaps not. Don't get your knickers in a twist! ;P

[Peach]

Originally Posted by JEC

You might not be aware but it matters to us, Vet fencers, a lot.

I believe qatet has reffed vets and knows that all too well .

That's why she suggests a new referee should start out with a non-point event like a local veterans tournament, to learn to deal with us when there aren't any points on the line. We do take our fencing very seriously. And it's not easy to referee us for a number of reasons--idiosyncratic or outmoded styles, awkwardness engendered by joints, the depth of tactical and strategic layers hidden behind an inability to lunge quite as gracefully, and many years spent managing other people so that our glares are far more effective than the wounded-puppy outrage of a cadet.

I still respect Jon Moss for what he said when a young referee objected to being pulled to ref a veteran event at an NAC. "This is a point event," he said firmly, and the young ref--a stalwart of the Div I MS--looked startled and abashed.

[alewive]

If the numbers would support it, I'd be interested in a Vet event with a D-and under or even E-and under, separated by gender. While not new to fencing (I've hauled my kids around for years), I only started myself two years ago and the large Opens are a tad intimidating. And the experience of making it through a D/E or two with still the goal of a rating -- albeit it lower than the As and Bs you desire -- is a nice goal for those of us still cutting our teeth.

On the scheduling front, if I recall correctly the BFC Vet Challenge was held the weekend of a NAC the past two years -- which was a bummer because of family commitments I had there. So if possible, for the parent-of-a-competitive-fencer fencers among us, trying to avoid scheduling on a NAC weekend would enable more of us to come.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Originally Posted by theLuz

I was fencing in a very young club in San Diego recently, when a young girl asked me how long I'd been fencing. I thought and asked how old her dad was. Then I said, "older than that......"

Hehehe...I'm not a Vet yet...a couple more years will fix that. But it's funny...I asked one of the competitors at a tournament a few months back how old he was. He was sixteen. I pointed out that I had bought the fencing shoes I was wearing two years before he was born. He just about fell on the floor!

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by alewive

If the numbers would support it, I'd be interested in a Vet event with a D-and under or even E-and under, separated by gender. While not new to fencing (I've hauled my kids around for years), I only started myself two years ago and the large Opens are a tad intimidating. And the experience of making it through a D/E or two with still the goal of a rating -- albeit it lower than the As and Bs you desire -- is a nice goal for those of us still cutting our teeth.

On the scheduling front, if I recall correctly the BFC Vet Challenge was held the weekend of a NAC the past two years -- which was a bummer because of family commitments I had there. So if possible, for the parent-of-a-competitive-fencer fencers among us, trying to avoid scheduling on a NAC weekend would enable more of us to come.

You've got it, 29-30 Sep, a week before the NAC. What weapon do you fence? In addition to the Vets Challenge, New England Division has several other Vets tournaments which typically do not have the higher classifications participating.

Try the team event, it can be much less scary.

Have you run out of excuses yet?

[michaelm]

I would be hugely interested in getting to a vet-only event... back to the sport for about 2 years after ~30 away, I have little interest is chasing (or being chased) by young 'uns. Tried my first NAC a little while ago - crashed anf burned - but had a great time just being there.

My 2c on vet comps:
- I don't buy tee-shirts, and happily wear any logo'd give-away, so those are always welcome.
- Desk ornaments also make great swag: I assume most of us in this bracket are mostly desk bound, so these sorts of ornaments may make better "medals" than the traditional beribboned ones.
- I couldn't commit to more than one day of a week-end, and it would have to be a Sunday.
- It would have to be really special to drive more than 2hrs each way, so that would mean a radius based on LI to most of northern NJ and coastal CT.
- Cost: I don't compete every weekend, so I am less price sensitive. Not price ignorant, though!

[michaelm]

and another thing -- duh! -- let's answer the title of the thread first:

How does one draw fencers to a vet tournament? Host it, and they will come....