07-05-2007, 08:11 PM
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#1 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Pennsauken, NJ
Posts: 8,951
| Policy about coaching when hired as a referee
The following policy was published at Summer Nationals a couple of days ago. It is in effect for the remainder of the tournament and it has been represented that the FOC meeting in August is likely to approve it for use at all national tournaments moving forward. Quote:
To All Referees:
There is obviously some confusion regarding what a referee may do regarding coaching at a competition.
Please read this carefully and adhere to this:
If you are in the venue on a day when you are assigned to be a referee for any part of that day, you may not at any time whatsoever, coach anyone. Coaching in this situation is giving any advice regarding fencing.
First Offense: No more officiating for the day; no Honorarium or per diem.
Second Offense: Return home.
Sharon Everson, Head Referee
USFA 2007 Summer Nationals
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|  | | And now for this message... |
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07-05-2007, 08:22 PM
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#2 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Pacoima, ca USA
Posts: 5,991
| Quote:
Originally Posted by oiuyt  The following policy was published at Summer Nationals a couple of days ago. It is in effect for the remainder of the tournament and it has been represented that the FOC meeting in August is likely to approve it for use at all national tournaments moving forward. | You would think this would be a no-brainer...but apparently some people need reminders.
I always put any coaching hat aside when i direct...there was one year we were self-directing team foil quals and it was my turn to direct. I ended up red carding my own teammate (don;t remember what for).
he looked at me and said "Dude! I'm on your team!"
My response..."Not when i'm up here directing, you;re not."
I may not be the best director, but i AM fair (i screw everyone equally!) | 
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07-05-2007, 10:48 PM
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#3 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: near Boston
Posts: 3,308
| Quote:
To All Referees:
There is obviously some confusion regarding what a referee may do regarding coaching at a competition.
Please read this carefully and adhere to this:
If you are in the venue on a day when you are assigned to be a referee for any part of that day, you may not at any time whatsoever, coach anyone. Coaching in this situation is giving any advice regarding fencing.
First Offense: No more officiating for the day; no Honorarium or per diem.
Second Offense: Return home.
Sharon Everson, Head Referee
USFA 2007 Summer Nationals
This is quite typical of all of my previous experience with Sharon Everson. I admire her and I respect her for her decades of service to fencers, fencing, Womens Collegiate Fencing, the AFLA and the USFA.
But this harda$$, take-no-prisoners, my-way-or-the-highway attitude is going to drive good people away from refereeing.
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07-05-2007, 11:02 PM
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#4 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: George Mason Univesity and NJ
Posts: 470
| Quote:
Originally Posted by fencerbill [i]Quote:
But this harda$$, take-no-prisoners, my-way-or-the-highway attitude is going to drive good people away from refereeing. | Fencerbill now gets dragged away from computer by big men in dark suites and sunglasses . . .
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07-05-2007, 11:07 PM
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#5 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: near Boston
Posts: 3,308
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Originally Posted by catwood1 Fencerbill now gets dragged away from computer by big men in dark suites and sunglasses . . . | Never to be seen in a blue jacket again. But somebody has to say it.
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07-05-2007, 11:12 PM
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#6 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Pacoima, ca USA
Posts: 5,991
| Quote:
Originally Posted by fencerbill [I
This is quite typical of all of my previous experience with Sharon Everson. I admire her and I respect her for her decades of service to fencers, fencing, Womens Collegiate Fencing, the AFLA and the USFA.
But this harda$$, take-no-prisoners, my-way-or-the-highway attitude is going to drive good people away from refereeing. | I must disagree...someone who is hired to referee is there to referee...period.
in order to maintain the impartiality necessarry to effectively perform the role, there MUST be compete separation between reffing and coaching.
If I was in a tough DE bout and my ref offered some advice to my opponent between periods, how fair is that to ME? I'd be calling the bout committe durn fast!
Yes, the memo's more than a bit draconian....but some ref somewhere must've done it...this reads like a response to a complaint. | |
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07-05-2007, 11:13 PM
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#7 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: George Mason Univesity and NJ
Posts: 470
| Quote:
Originally Posted by fencerbill Never to be seen in a blue jacket again. But somebody has to say it. | Lol, yeah.
I actually agree with this decision. I see refs coaching fencers all the time, which really aggravates me. Its just a pet peeve of mine. I think its probably good that they are cracking down on this. Is it still the case that after you are released, you can go and change clothes out of your attire, and come back and coach your teammates? Or do they not want that anymore?
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"Sir, didn't I parry"
"You didn't take advantage of his blade enough, so no."
(I guess i should have romanced it a bit more..."
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07-05-2007, 11:18 PM
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#8 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Pacoima, ca USA
Posts: 5,991
| Quote:
Originally Posted by catwood1 Lol, yeah.
I actually agree with this decision. I see refs coaching fencers all the time, which really aggravates me. Its just a pet peeve of mine. I think its probably good that they are cracking down on this. Is it still the case that after you are released, you can go and change clothes out of your attire, and come back and coach your teammates? Or do they not want that anymore? | Good point....the way I read it, you cancome back and coach....but you;re on your own for the amenities usually provided to the hired refs | |
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07-05-2007, 11:19 PM
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#9 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: near Boston
Posts: 3,308
| Quote:
Originally Posted by catwood1 Lol, yeah.
I actually agree with this decision. I see refs coaching fencers all the time, which really aggravates me. Its just a pet peeve of mine. I think its probably good that they are cracking down on this. Is it still the case that after you are released, you can go and change clothes out of your attire, and come back and coach your teammates? Or do they not want that anymore? | I agree that referees must avoid the appearance of mixing refereeing and coaching.
It is not still the case. Didn't you read the announcement?
This was overkill.
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07-05-2007, 11:19 PM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Hall School, Wellesely, MA
Posts: 3,821
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Originally Posted by catwood1 Lol, yeah.
I actually agree with this decision. I see refs coaching fencers all the time, which really aggravates me. Its just a pet peeve of mine. I think its probably good that they are cracking down on this. Is it still the case that after you are released, you can go and change clothes out of your attire, and come back and coach your teammates? Or do they not want that anymore? | I agree, but I'm quite cynical about how it'll be applied...
I have, on more than one occasion, seen an active Head Referee coaching (and giving notes to the referee on strip at the same time!). I have a feeling this ruling isn't going to stop that, but will stop refs with less clout.
-m | |
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07-05-2007, 11:21 PM
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#11 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Hall School, Wellesely, MA
Posts: 3,821
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Originally Posted by Purple Fencer Good point....the way I read it, you cancome back and coach....but you;re on your own for the amenities usually provided to the hired refs | That's not the way I read it at all...
"If you are in the venue on a day when you are assigned to be a referee for any part of that day, you may not at any time whatsoever, coach anyone."
That seems to pretty clearly say that if you referee on day X, you may not coach on day X. Period. regardless of whether you have been released, have changed, or whatever.
-m | |
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07-05-2007, 11:30 PM
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#12 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: George Mason Univesity and NJ
Posts: 470
| Quote:
Originally Posted by epeemike81 That's not the way I read it at all...
"If you are in the venue on a day when you are assigned to be a referee for any part of that day, you may not at any time whatsoever, coach anyone."
That seems to pretty clearly say that if you referee on day X, you may not coach on day X. Period. regardless of whether you have been released, have changed, or whatever.
-m |
If that is the case, then I think its an overreaction. Refs should not be allowed to coach WHILE they are reffing. By that I mean at the venue, in ref attire, and have not yet been released. If a person was a referee and got released go back to their room and change clothes, they are IMO no longer working as a referee, and should be allowed to do other things. Albeit coach or cheering for teammates.
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"Sir, didn't I parry"
"You didn't take advantage of his blade enough, so no."
(I guess i should have romanced it a bit more..."
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07-05-2007, 11:37 PM
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#13 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2003 Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,420
| Quote:
Originally Posted by fencerbill
This is quite typical of all of my previous experience with Sharon Everson. I admire her and I respect her for her decades of service to fencers, fencing, Womens Collegiate Fencing, the AFLA and the USFA.
But this harda$$, take-no-prisoners, my-way-or-the-highway attitude is going to drive good people away from refereeing.
| I can't say that this particular document has in any way changed my attitudes towards fencing.
I am, in general, driven away from fencing, reffereeing, armoring, setting up, or even hanging out in the near vicinity of Sharon Everson, because she scares the ever living **** out of me.
This is something I'll get over at some point, but probably not until I really need money and there's someone begging for more reffs for some NIWFA thing nearby after I've graduated.... : )
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07-06-2007, 12:03 AM
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#14 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Beaverton, OR, USA
Posts: 1,546
| Quote: |
But this harda$$, take-no-prisoners, my-way-or-the-highway attitude is going to drive good people away from refereeing.
| Or put them there and keep them there, instead of playing armchair coach while they should be impartial observers. If they want to be paid to coach, they should get the proper gig.
The policy as written, enforced 100% seems like a good idea. What could be the problem? Quote: |
I have a feeling this ruling isn't going to stop that, but will stop refs with less clout.
| Oh.
Now that's a cynical viewpoint...are you saying that the FOCs will look the other way when refs near the top of the food chain do it? I'm shocked...shocked! Maybe you haven't considered that those refs are just sneakier and smarter than other refs, so nobody actually SEES them coaching.
darius | |
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07-06-2007, 12:11 AM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 544
| Quote:
Originally Posted by fencerbill This is quite typical of all of my previous experience with Sharon Everson. I admire her and I respect her ...
But this harda$$, take-no-prisoners, my-way-or-the-highway attitude is going to drive good people away from refereeing. |  How is this offensive? It seems pretty clear and fair. | |
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07-06-2007, 12:27 AM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2003 Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,420
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Originally Posted by Redblade How is this offensive? It seems pretty clear and fair. | It's because it's from Sharon. You can get anyone to take something the wrong way if you make it from Sharon........ I bet Sharon could offer people more money and people would get offended just because it was from Sharon............
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07-06-2007, 12:46 AM
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#17 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: near Boston
Posts: 3,308
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Originally Posted by Redblade How is this offensive? It seems pretty clear and fair. | She is quite clear.
Fair? What right has the FOC to tell anyone how they must behave after they are through working for the day?
The longstanding policy, as I understand it, was that you should avoid the appearance of impropriety. No coaching with a blue jacket on. If they want to say "Change out of blue jacket/grey slacks before coaching", that is defensible.
What is probably reality is that, except for a very few other assigners or FOC, no one but Sharon is going to enforce this. Establishing an excessive policy and then not enforcing it undermines other things the FOC wants to accomplish.
If we have violators of the past policy, discipline them. Don't go overboard.
As pointed out elsewhere, assigners/FOC themselves have been observed violating the past policy. Do you think any other FOC is going to make a fuss about them? Is Sharon going to fine them or send them home?
MP said she would not help out in any way if Sharon is around. This is perhaps exaggeration. But it is consistent with excessively harsh policies and practices.
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07-06-2007, 01:03 AM
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#18 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2003 Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,420
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Originally Posted by fencerbill MP said she would not help out in any way if Sharon is around. This is perhaps exaggeration. But it is consistent with excessively harsh policies and practices. | Enh, not exactly what I said, and not exactly what I have done and will do.
But I did wonder if my College Coach was trying to punish me when he offered to host NIWFA Championships without asking me first-- It's a very thankless job. And it is, every single year, the conference we discuss not being a member of at all......
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