ugly side of USFA

[750gms]

So does anyone else think what Executive Committee did yesterday was royally f***ed up?

[catwood1]

For those of us out of the loop, what happened?

[Grasshopper]

They passed a bill requiring all members to do a "touch-back" to their home state and pay a $5000 penalty.

[epeeforlife]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

They passed a bill requiring all members to do a "touch-back" to their home state and pay a $5000 penalty.

I thought it was that they stole candy from the Y10 fencers.

[dsapery]

Could someone please give a serious answer? Those of us who aren't in Miami are in the dark as to what the Executive Committee did.

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by dsapery

Could someone please give a serious answer? Those of us who aren't in Miami are in the dark as to what the Executive Committee did.

I'm not in Miami, but according to somebody who is: "Basically in a meeting likened the entire referee cadre to petulant children... Long story."

don't yet know any more detail than that.

-m

[Peach]

Hmm. If that's true, it's a good way to annoy the people on whose good-will and volunteer ethic they depend much more heavily than they may realize.

[oiuyt]

(note for clarity: In this post BC will always refer to Bout Committee, not Black Card)

Some additional details from someone who IS actually here.

Gago Demirchian (National Men's Epee Coach) was black carded on Friday. I have few reliable details as to circumstances, as the stories include a fairly wide range of accounts. I won't contribute to the spread of mis-information by recounting them here.

The black card was ruled a tournament-long penalty, rather than an event penalty (expulsion for the day).

This triggered a fair amount of consternation and discussion on Saturday.

On Sunday, following the BoD meeting, the EC met to hear an appeal of the BC appeal which upheld the black card. The EC voted to commute the penalty to a event card, rather than a tournament card. Gago was told he was allowed back in the venue for the remainder of the week.

This triggered considerably more conversation. And a number of meetings. Sunday evening the remaining members of the EC that were still present had another meeting to revisit the decision they had made that morning. The vote this time was deadlocked. It was decided that the commutation would stand but that a disciplinary panel would be formed with a mandate to look into it and report to the Board in September.

The various decisions were communicated at the referee meeting yesterday (I was not present at that meeting, I was competing and coaching yesterday). The various reports I have from the referees there indicate that the means used for communicating the information were considered more than a bit condescending by a number of the referee cadre, some of whom were reportedly quite offended by the statements made, if not the EC actions. Just to emphasize the point, I was not present, so have no first-hand knowledge of what was said or how. I have heard a number of comments from other referees which indicate their feelings about how it was presented. Exclusively unfavorable comments, to varying degree.

I believe that the Monday morning report of actions taken was the first that the majority of the referees were even aware that anything involved had been taking place over the previous three days.

I suspect that there will be much continuing conversation on the matter throughout the week and likely moving forward.

-B

[epeemike81]

Who was the original referee? What did Gago do?

-m

[piste off]

What possibly did Gago do to warrant a tournament card? Did he hurl a flaming bagel?

Rick

[Gav]

I was present at the meeting. The reason that the Black Card was not originally an event card was because of a technical error on the form. It did not indicate it was event long and the coach appealed and prevailed.

Sigh.

You know this is the sort of thing we read about over the pond and shake our head over. A "techinicality"? To earn a black you should be misbehaving pretty badly. A black card is not slightly worse than a red card. I am not sure what the USFA regs are but here in the UK there are disciplinary meetings and everything. Though there are problems with the UK approach...

In any case if he's been served a black it seems to me that to cheapen it, by letting him off on a technicality, does nothing more than undermine your referees.

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by Gav

Sigh.

You know this is the sort of thing we read about over the pond and shake our head over. A "techinicality"? To earn a black you should be misbehaving pretty badly. A black card is not slightly worse than a red card. I am not sure what the USFA regs are but here in the UK there are disciplinary meetings and everything. Though there are problems with the UK approach...

In any case if he's been served a black it seems to me that to cheapen it, by letting him off on a technicality, does nothing more than undermine your referees.

important to remember, though, that most black cards are for the event only (interpreted as exclusion from the venue for the duration of that day), not the entirety of the tournament (In this case, the tournament lasts 10 days). A black card for the tournament is an EXTREMELY harsh penalty. Did Gago do something which is IMO deserving of such a harsh penalty? I don't know, but I'd doubt it.

-m

[fencerbill]

The fact that the individual was the National Weapon Squad Coach really brings in some interesting aspects.

Did he think he was uncardable? Should he have held himself to greater restraint because of the adverse consequences to the International competitors he had responsibilities to.

I have absolutely no familiarity with the gentleman. From his name, I assume he is from a Central or Eastern European heritage. Is this a factor? There must have been some words involved - in what language?

Wish I was there just to feast on the gossip. Oiuyt's restraint was admirable, but only what we have come to expect from him.

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

The fact that the individual was the National Weapon Squad Coach really brings in some interesting aspects.

Did he think he was uncardable? Should he have held himself to greater restraint because of the adverse consequences to the International competitors he had responsibilities to.

I have absolutely no familiarity with the gentleman. From his name, I assume he is from a Central or Eastern European heritage. Is this a factor? There must have been some words involved - in what language?

Wish I was there just to feast on the gossip. Oiuyt's restraint was admirable, but only what we have come to expect from him.

I can't answer most of these questions until and unless I know the specifics of what happened. The adverse affects, though, of a black card at a domestic event would not be to the international competitors, but rather to his own club fencers. The national team will do fine with or without him at Nationals.

I do have some familiarity with Gago, and I've never had (or witnessed) any issues with him. for that reason, I tend to suspect that the initial decision to card him for the duration of the tournament instead of merely the day may have been overly harsh, and that the "technicality" may have been the justification for the commutation, but not the reason.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by H Man

Regardless, the coach used vulgar insults and words which clearly made the ref feel as if his physical well being was in jepordy.

Sounds like behavior worthy of a black card, but NOT behavior worthy of exclusion from all ten days.

I'd be willing to bet anything that the referee was inexperienced.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by H Man

HMMM. Mike, I do...

..bite my tounge

For the record (since it IS a matter of record when somebody issues a black card), the referee was Lewis Sloter. Like I said: inexperienced. Sounds like the black card was justified, but making it a week long card was an overreaction (according to multiple primary sources whose opinion I trust).

-m

[keropie]

Originally Posted by H Man

The meeting on Monday Morning was closed door. By this I presume that those who attended are expected to not deceminate details such as the ref envolved etc.

Regardless, the coach used vulgar insults and words which clearly made the ref feel as if his physical well being was in jepordy.

Ref's legs where cut off.

Enough said.

I was not there, but if the ref honestly felt like his physical well being were in jeopardy and there was any reason to feel like that, I do not feel like a full tournament ban would be unreasonable. I can think of no good reason to threaten a referee, unless that ref was doing something well outside of the realm of refereeing.

But all of the details that I have are from this thread.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by H Man

Nope-quite to the contrare. Just that such a public forum comes back and bites one in the gludius maximus.

.................... Who ARE you?

I know Mike, and most of the regular members of the board either know him in real life, or know him by what he says on the boards enough to have some concept of what he knows, who he knows, and how experienced he is. Specifically, we know when to believe him, and when to ignore him.

You..... don't have such a record. This doesn't mean you don't have an opinion. It may even be a valid opinion. But the past couple posts have only indicated that you have a different opinion, without explaining why you have a different opinion, how you came to that.

You don't have to explain your identity or who you've talked to..... But without context, you give us no reason to believe you....

[fencerwallet]

I have been here in Miami since the start of SN, and honestly, the refs overall have been having a rough tournament so far. The number of the events may perhaps be too much, with alot of young guys thrown into the fire and perhaps too long of days. This isn't just in epee, where Gago strongly contested a call by a young ref but he (Gago) initially was not overtly yelling or screaming. He only started getting upset after he got black carded.

During bouts in my son's saber pool, the refs lost count of touches literally 3 bouts in a row. Now, I can take missed calls, but when you can't keep track of touches, and then the other ref hasn't been watching, and THEN it happens for 2 more consecutive bouts, that is just not right. I know these guys give their time, but, hey, don't do it if you don't want to be there and do it the best you can.

[catwood1]

I agree that there is no excuse for losing count of touches multiple times. It happened to me once at a small local tournament where I wasn't sure if a fencer has 2 or 3 touches. I got so shaken from that, that now I ALWAYS make sure to keep the little peice of paper and pencil in my hand and make little tally marks after every touch. That being said, refs at summer nationals do get worked like dogs, so I'll cut them some slack.