clear tape - ok or not?

[finnfence]

Recently at an epee competition my wire popped out of one of my only two epees (I'm not an epeeist, so I didn't have a third one I could sub for the DE) and the ref told me it would be ok to pin it back down with tape as long as the tape was clear, so that she could see there was not switch or whatever under it.

Is this really allowed? It would be awfully handy in those cases where the wire of one's favorite foil pops out or develops a bare spot in the middle of a competition.

[catwood1]

In foil I can't think of a reason why it would NOT be allowed if it was in lieu of normal tape up by the tip, but I don't think your could use it anywhere else on the blade. In epee you shouldn't because tape would not be grounded. If during a blade contact, your opponent managed to hit your blade, it would register a touch. That would be bad. And quite illigal

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I can't imagine it's actually legal, but if the tape were very very carefully trimmed, such that it wasn't actually any bigger than the amount of glue one would use, it wouldn't pose any more problems than glue. That said, lots of people use way too much glue.......

I just carry superglue with me now : )

[HDG]

Originally Posted by catwood1

In epee you shouldn't because tape would not be grounded. If during a blade contact, your opponent managed to hit your blade, it would register a touch. That would be bad. And quite illigal

Quote me a rule.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by catwood1

In foil I can't think of a reason why it would NOT be allowed if it was in lieu of normal tape up by the tip, but I don't think your could use it anywhere else on the blade. In epee you shouldn't because tape would not be grounded. If during a blade contact, your opponent managed to hit your blade, it would register a touch. That would be bad. And quite illigal

Nope...not illegal at all...no more so than a big glob 'o glue in teh channel that might catch the point.

Tape on your weapon is only illegal if it gives YOU an advantage (like hiding a switch)....if you have tape on the blade and it catches your opponent's point and causes him to register a touch...sucks to be you.

If you look through the rulebook, the ONLY place the word "tape" is used in relation to the weapon is regarding insulating the front 15cm of the blade in foil

[MyrddinsPrecint]

m.18 The épée has two electric wires, glued in a groove in the blade,
which connect the point to two of the three sockets situated inside
the guard and which form the active circuit of the épée. The body of
the épée is connected to the third socket.

This doesn't specifically say that tape is illegal, but it certainly does indicate that the wire should be connected by glue rather than tape......

edit: which, yeah, is for your own benefit............

if someone had glue covering their blade (I don't mean the groove, I mean encasing it, I mean not grounded at all on any part....), it would be legal, I guess. But would that person really be allowed to use it????

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by catwood1

In foil I can't think of a reason why it would NOT be allowed if it was in lieu of normal tape up by the tip, but I don't think your could use it anywhere else on the blade. In epee you shouldn't because tape would not be grounded. If during a blade contact, your opponent managed to hit your blade, it would register a touch. That would be bad. And quite illigal

I can't find a rule as to whether it is illegal but there is definitely a rule that if a touch was scored on the tape, it would not be annulled.

T68.3.g. The fact that the épée of a competitor has large or small areas
of insulation formed by oxidation, by glue, paint or any other
material on the guard, on the blade or elsewhere, on which
his opponent’s touches can cause a touch to be signalled, or
that the electric tip is badly fixed to the end of the blade so
that it can be unscrewed or tightened by hand, cannot justify
the annulment of touches registered against that competitor.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

I can't find a rule as to whether it is illegal but there is definitely a rule that if a touch was scored on the tape, it would not be annulled.

T68.3.g. The fact that the épée of a competitor has large or small areas
of insulation formed by oxidation, by glue, paint or any other
material on the guard, on the blade or elsewhere, on which
his opponent’s touches can cause a touch to be signalled, or
that the electric tip is badly fixed to the end of the blade so
that it can be unscrewed or tightened by hand, cannot justify
the annulment of touches registered against that competitor.

Thus my "sucks to be you" comment earlier...

[HDG]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Thus my "sucks to be you" comment earlier...

Indeed; this falls under the "it's your own dumbass fault" category.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

I can't find a rule as to whether it is illegal but there is definitely a rule that if a touch was scored on the tape, it would not be annulled.

T68.3.g. The fact that the épée of a competitor has large or small areas
of insulation formed by oxidation, by glue, paint or any other
material on the guard, on the blade or elsewhere, on which
his opponent’s touches can cause a touch to be signalled, or
that the electric tip is badly fixed to the end of the blade so
that it can be unscrewed or tightened by hand, cannot justify
the annulment of touches registered against that competitor.

On the other hand,

t.66 1. In arriving at his judgement, the Referee will disregard
touches which are registered as a result of actions:
— started before the word ‘Fence’ or after the word ‘Halt’
(cf. t.18);
— caused by the meeting of the points of the épées or by a
touch made on the ground where it is not insulated;
— or which are made on any object other than the
opponent, including his equipment (cf. t.36, t.67/e).

Jon Moss spent some time talking about this, and since my notes about this and I are on opposite sides of the Mason Dixon, I'm near useless, but IIRC he seemed to indicate that this was (at least on some level) a contradiction.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

On the other hand,



Jon Moss spent some time talking about this, and since my notes about this and I are on opposite sides of the Mason Dixon, I'm near useless, but IIRC he seemed to indicate that this was (at least on some level) a contradiction.

The rulebook inconsistent? Say not so!!!! [/sarcasm]

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

The rulebook inconsistent? Say not so!!!! [/sarcasm]

hehe, the key part is to know it well enough to only use the bits that are useful to you when arguing with a ref : )

[finnfence]

You would think that it would fall under the "own stupid fault" category...except that nobody I've ever fenced has had good enough point control to actually hit it, even when I show them where on the blade it is

Encasing the blade in glue sounds like a good idea, given my success with getting the wires to stay in that enormous groove. I suppose it's not allowed to fold the sides of the V over the top and hammer them flat so they come together a bit and do something useful in terms of helping keep the wires in place? I don't understand why epees can't be set up with one wire in a narrow groove like foil, anyhow...grumble...

[catwood1]

Hmm, your right. I guess it wouldn't be Illigal, but there are still a few problems with it. First off, if you wrapped big bulky tape around a the center of your blade, say 10 times, it would still be transparent and not hiding any switch, but, if it was so much tape that it raised up from the blade a half inch, then your opponent's blade could get stuck on it if they tried to parry. That would be illigal because it was giving you an advantage. Even one or 2 layers of tape could have the same effect.

This is similar to having rust on your bellguard. Its a "sucks to be you" moment. But, I was told that as a referee, if it is found that a fencer as rust on the bellguard that is registering touches, that I should not annull any touches, but I should stop allowing them to use that weapon, and that I should confiscate it for the bout. I would take the same approach to a fencer having tape in his blade, and I would confiscate it for the duration of the bout. I could be wrong, but that is how I was taught to ref.

[Monash_Armourer]

Originally Posted by catwood1

Hmm, your right. I guess it wouldn't be Illigal, but there are still a few problems with it. First off, if you wrapped big bulky tape around a the center of your blade, say 10 times, it would still be transparent and not hiding any switch, but, if it was so much tape that it raised up from the blade a half inch, then your opponent's blade could get stuck on it if they tried to parry. That would be illigal because it was giving you an advantage. Even one or 2 layers of tape could have the same effect.

NO NO NO NO NO!!!

Get a strip of tape (the thinner the tape the better) and run it along the length of the top of the blade a little bit further in each direction from where the wire has come out. Push the tape down into the V shape of the blade, so it fits the contour of the blade BUT NOT DOWN THE SIDES! Trim along the edges to remove the excess of the tape so it sits flush with the top of the groove and run some superglue along the top when you nest have a chance.

The tape should not wrap around the blade AT ALL because a strong action along the blade by your opponent could potentially dislodge the tape and pull out your wire with it.

Should this be done neatly I would not have a problem with the tape being clear or otherwise because it is nigh impossible to have a switch hidden in the middle of your blade that could potentially be activated by the fencer, it's only really under the guard where this is a potential risk due to it being able to be concealed and activated discretely.

I also think it fairly unlikely that you would receive a hit on the top of the blade, where the tip would make contact solely inside the groove with the tape and not grounding out though the blade. In the event this did happen, I don't think it'd be too hard to pick up by the referee.



(As an aside, I would not tape a foil using clear tape, as it could potentially make it harder to pick up nicks in the tape that could cause the weapon to ground out. This is a lot easier to do with a coloured tape that contrasts against the blade.)

[Monash_Armourer]

Originally Posted by finnfence

Encasing the blade in glue sounds like a good idea, given my success with getting the wires to stay in that enormous groove. I suppose it's not allowed to fold the sides of the V over the top and hammer them flat so they come together a bit and do something useful in terms of helping keep the wires in place? I don't understand why epees can't be set up with one wire in a narrow groove like foil, anyhow...grumble...

Apart from making the blade more than difficult to rewire, this would seriously compromise the structural integrity of the blade.

If you only had one wire for Epee and used the blade as the other conductor as in Foil, you would not be able to effectively ground out hits on the guard, any hit on the guard could potenially cause a light or even double lights depending on the particular circuitry of the scoring aparatus used.

[piste off]

Originally Posted by catwood1

Hmm, your right. I guess it wouldn't be Illigal, but there are still a few problems with it. First off, if you wrapped big bulky tape around a the center of your blade, say 10 times, it would still be transparent and not hiding any switch, but, if it was so much tape that it raised up from the blade a half inch, then your opponent's blade could get stuck on it if they tried to parry. That would be illigal because it was giving you an advantage. Even one or 2 layers of tape could have the same effect.

Thanks for pointing that out... (and it does not even have to be a half inch to be a problem).

It is a pet peeve of mine when folks add wraps of tape around their epee. I let it slide in practice, but I actually think it creates a dangerous situation as it causes your opponent's blade to get caught, which increases the risk of an break.

Monash_Armourer's idea sounds like a smart alternative.

Rick

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Y'know, it might actually be easier to glue the damn thing than tape the damn thing, since I can't imagine the kind of tape that, merely sitting in the groove, would hold the wire in for more than a touch. Especially if the glue job was in any way sloppy.....