Fencing with tennis elbow

[lindajdunn]

I saw a doctor Friday, who confirmed what I suspected: I have tennis elbow. Actually he used fancier words but the bottom line is that I will need to take some time off from sabre fencing after the SN.

The trigger for this was probably work-related as symptoms began almost immediately when I began the annual inventory audit that required using a very poorly designed (imho) program that required multiple mouse movements for every query, update, etc. There are NO keyboard shortcuts in that program and EVERYTHING requires multiple mouse movements and mouse clicks.

What the doctor did not/probably cannot tell me is what I'd like to know from someone here:

Once I start easing back into fencing, what can I do (in addition to footwork, obviously) that is least likely to slow recovery?

Can I practice without a partner? Stand in front of a mirror and practice parries? Practice advance-lunge with a sabre in my weapon hand?

I'm toying with the idea of taking epee lessons and doing this left-handed so I'm still working out but not risking reinjury. I have already moved my mouse to the left side of my keyboard at work.

Any suggestions from anyone with experience with this problem?

[Peach]

Maybe twelve years ago I had the same problem, and I dealt with it (with some frustration) by attempting to take lessons and fence left-handed. My coach firmly believes non-dominant practice is good for learning, but all it does to me is make me crazy.

My tennis elbow was caused by my less-than-optimal foil parries, and I solved THAT by fencing only sabre.

Hope you have a quick recovery. See you in Miami.

[lindajdunn]

Thanks. AFTER competition, if there's an opportunity, I'd like to talk to you about tennis elbow and LASIK surgery.

[I'm considering LASIK surgery.]

[Ordway]

Well, I am kind of a success story at the moment - end of April I had tendonitis so bad in my weapon arm that I couldn't so much as lift a glass of water, turn a key in my door, or shift from Drive into Park. This is not an exaggeration. However, yesterday I fenced in Div I WS without pain. !!!!!!!!!!! I am not 100% better (I still can't lift heavy things with my right arm, for instance) but it's about 80% so far.

So I have a couple of thoughts:

1. Rest is NOT ENOUGH. I tried that first. "some time off" by itself is no good. SEE A PHYSICAL / OCCUPATIONAL THERAPIST!!!!!!! My OT gave me specific stretches and exercises to do to strengthen the muscles in my forearm to both correct the problem and prevent it in the future.

2. Ice ice ice. I sure got sick of icing my elbow 2-3 times per day, but it helped. Inflammation is the enemy.

3. Don't re-injure yourself. It was really really hard for me to not even touch a sabre for 6 weeks, right smack in the middle of my training season, but that's what I needed to do.

4. When you do feel OK enough to fence again, do it in short sections and ice your elbow in between. The first week or two that I bouted again, instead of doing, say, 15-20 bouts in a night... I did 3 or 4 bouts.

5. There are some good stretches to do to stretch the forearm. Now I do them before I fence, and also at random times throughout the day whenever I feel like it.

6. I'm not sure why I'm numbering these. Hm. Anyway, my OT REALLY did not approve of those strap thingys that put pressure on the muscle to prevent pain. It doesn't solve the problem, apparently it only works right if it's in exactly exactly the right place, and it can cause problems. What he did say was good was to wear one of those stretchy compression brace things on the elbow - it provides a bit of support and some warmth, but no harm. I've been wearing one of those now and I like it.

7. I think this got off track, as I look at your original message... Some of the other things that I did were to do lots and lots of footwork. I think 6 weeks of footwork-only actually helped my fencing (I did footwork with the group and then did it by myself while everyone else was fencing).

8. I didn't fence lefthanded at all, after discussion with my coach, who took the opposite tack to Delia's coach - he said that if I thought it was going to be a long-term problem, like a whole year, then yes, I should switch, but if it was less than that, I should not switch, that it was better not to fence (do footwork only) than to fence opposite-handed, because it would mess me up. In retrospect, I'm not sure whether he meant that as a generality or whether he meant that it would mess ME up, but in any case, for me that was true. If I were fencing recreationally it would have been cool to try, but since I want competitive results I went with what would be better for my fencing.

9. I didn't do any mirror work in rehab because I couldn't pick up a sabre. But I am doing it now to improve technique. I would not recommend doing footwork holding a sabre because the weight will put strain on your elbow.

10. This makes ten.

It was really hard work to get back to being able to fence again (and my coach is insisting that I take July off, to consolidate the rehab) but it was worth it. I tried just "resting a little" and "taking it easy" but I don't really have the personality for that.... and it wasn't enough anyway. Please do take it seriously and "attack" the problem so you can get well, and not just put up with the pain!

[Inquartata]

Well, I will refrain from regaling you with what I do, or don't do, when I have tendinitis in the elbow, because (a) it is probably something that will not work for many others, and (b) it might evoke The Wrath of Peet, regarding "amateur medical advice". and respectively.

I will however say that I tried the left-handed thing once and it was a debacle. I never felt so uncoordinated and awkward in my life. The footwork was bad enough, but I simply could not make my hand respond properly. It was like being having advanced Parkinson's, or being a spastic 3-year-old.

You can do footwork, you can do distance drills, above all you can do conditioning work. Or you can do what I would do if I had to give up sabre for 6 weeks like Holly did, that is, crawl under your bed, curl up in a ball and whimper softly until it's over...

[lindajdunn]

I had to give up sabre for 2 months after I injured my thumb ligament during the WSVET competiton at Richmond. I also succeeded in slowing down my knee recovery by going back to the strip too soon so I was ordered off for two months.

They were not the longest two months of my life but I SHOULD have crawled under the bed. I was depressed the entire time and concern about not being able to return to the strip was the biggest part of the depression.

What kind of compression strap on the arm? I'm wearing one of those velco things now I've also ordered the Cryocuff elbow attachment for icing the elbow. It's HARD to get those bags of frozen peas to stay on the elbow and I've been using the knee attachment on my elbow with only marginal success.

Thanks for the input, everyone.

[Greg]

I had it diagnosed last December and had to stop fencing for a couple of months. I tried fencing left hand just to keep fencing but it was not much fun. The injury was very painful. It will clear up completely given several weeks of good rest and rehab. There are some easy weight lifting exercises to strengthen the muscle. One thing my doctor told me is that it was good I caught it early. He said many people wait a very long time - more than a year to get a diagnosis and treatment and then the injury can become a lifelong problem that never heals properly. I would not rely on straps, Ibuprofen and ice just to keep fencing with the injury. Take the six weeks off and properly rehab it.

[Ordway]

I wasn't off fencing for 6 weeks totally... I did footwork and I refereed. My coach felt that refereeing at the club would help keep me "in the game" mentally, and he was right.

At about week 3 I was extremely anxious about what this would mean in terms of my fencing career. Fortunately I had the right people to talk it over with & help me deal with it.

Ice: my occupational therapist said that the ice packs you buy in the store just don't get cold enough to do the job properly. He gave me a recipe for homemade better ones:

1 part rubbing alcohol to 3 parts water. Put into a ziplock freezer bag, then put that bag inside another one. Freeze. It should be slightly slushy/firm. If it's too hard, put more alcohol; if it's too liquidy, put more water. Put inside something like a pillowcase to apply (so it's not directly on your skin.) Let me tell you, these ice packs get MUCH colder than the kinds you buy. It really makes a difference in how effectively it numbs the area - after about 5 minutes on one spot it is white and numb (at which point you have to remove it - frostnip is a possibility.) The good thing is that you can make them in different sizes. I found them much easier to "wrap around" my elbow than the darn bag of peas, which never did the job properly.

The velcro elbow thing is exactly what the OT didn't approve of, btw.

[lindajdunn]

Originally Posted by Ordway

Ice: my occupational therapist said that the ice packs you buy in the store just don't get cold enough to do the job properly. He gave me a recipe for homemade better ones:

I tried that with the knee problem but the cryocuff worked SO much better and I could take it with me to work so that's the route I went.

Originally Posted by Ordway

1 part rubbing alcohol to 3 parts water. Put into a ziplock freezer bag, then put that bag inside another one. Freeze. It should be slightly slushy/firm. If it's too hard, put more alcohol; if it's too liquidy, put more water. Put inside something like a pillowcase to apply (so it's not directly on your skin.) Let me tell you, these ice packs get MUCH colder than the kinds you buy. It really makes a difference in how effectively it numbs the area - after about 5 minutes on one spot it is white and numb (at which point you have to remove it - frostnip is a possibility.) The good thing is that you can make them in different sizes. I found them much easier to "wrap around" my elbow than the darn bag of peas, which never did the job properly.

The velcro elbow thing is exactly what the OT didn't approve of, btw.

What WAS the device the OT recommended for while you're active? I figure I'm going to be wearing it while fencing at the SN and then not wear it again until I have a chance to talk to/work with a PT or an OT.

One should be careful what one asks for. I had grumbled that I'd over-estimated the amount to put into the FSA and thus I was going to need to have LASIK surfery or something before the end of the year or lose all the money I'd put into the fund. Now I've got a medical expenditure.

[jessicasimpson]

massage will help alot

[Ordway]

Originally Posted by lindajdunn

What WAS the device the OT recommended for while you're active? I figure I'm going to be wearing it while fencing at the SN and then not wear it again until I have a chance to talk to/work with a PT or an OT.

Just one of those ordinary stretchy compression braces - they're usually black, sort of a knit material? I take them for granted, most of the over-30 fencers at my club wear them on knees and/or elbows.

Also, we're talking about *after* I was 6 weeks through rehab - I don't know what he'd have suggested if I were in real pain and still wanted to fence.

I do suggest getting to see the PT/OT as soon as possible after Nationals. The longer you wait the harder it will be to get better. I should have gone when I first started hurting, but I tried to tough it out and fence through the pain. Bad idea. I pushed myself to the point that I literally could not pick up my sabre to get into en garde - had to lift and position it with my right hand - and of course could not do a parry or, in the final miserable half of my DE bout in Tucson, even do a cut. I really should have withdrawn after the pools, but I'm not really a withdrawing kind of person... In any case, if you're in that kind of pain, nothing is going to help you except rehab, and I would not recommend that you fence. Hopefully it is a lot less than that, but please please please don't put off doing the real rehab work after Nationals.

[lindajdunn]

Originally Posted by Ordway

I do suggest getting to see the PT/OT as soon as possible after Nationals. The longer you wait the harder it will be to get better. I should have gone when I first started hurting, but I tried to tough it out and fence through the pain. Bad idea. I pushed myself to the point that I literally could not pick up my sabre to get into en garde - had to lift and position it with my right hand - and of course could not do a parry or, in the final miserable half of my DE bout in Tucson, even do a cut. I really should have withdrawn after the pools, but I'm not really a withdrawing kind of person... In any case, if you're in that kind of pain, nothing is going to help you except rehab, and I would not recommend that you fence. Hopefully it is a lot less than that, but please please please don't put off doing the real rehab work after Nationals.

Unfortunately, we're about to begin our computer deployment and I'm stuck for the duration of that. I will, however, call the doctor's office to see about setting up appointments so I can start as soon as that task is completed.

I'll only be fencing WSV50 and that's a relatively small group. The arm should survive although I concede that I tend to be a little overly competitive.

[Ordway]

Any chance you can change the ergnomics of your workspace? I can't quite visualize how the mouse use would cause problems with your elbow (certainly can see how it could mess up your wrist) so I can't think of anything specific, but can you do things like change to a trackball instead of a mouse, use a wrist rest for the mouse (that might help, as it would "train" you to keep your arm relatively still and manipulate the mouse with your fingers only), use a wrist rest for the keyboard, raise or lower the height of the desk or your chair?

Just a thought, anyway. Best of luck in the V50.

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by Ordway

...but I tried to tough it out and fence through the pain.

I have to laugh: that totally sounds like what I would do, and have done too many times. Now that I know better, it's pretty much too late to make use of this wisdom.

Brian

[lindajdunn]

Originally Posted by Ordway

Any chance you can change the ergnomics of your workspace? I can't quite visualize how the mouse use would cause problems with your elbow (certainly can see how it could mess up your wrist) so I can't think of anything specific, but can you do things like change to a trackball instead of a mouse, use a wrist rest for the mouse (that might help, as it would "train" you to keep your arm relatively still and manipulate the mouse with your fingers only), use a wrist rest for the keyboard, raise or lower the height of the desk or your chair?

Just a thought, anyway. Best of luck in the V50.

The problem with the work environment was that I was seldom doing much input at the desk until the inventory began AND I was sitting at an odd angle to prop my left foot on an upside down wastebasket so my knee was elevated. The CPU was on the floor and the mouse was right and BACK. I had to S-T-R-E-T-C-H my right arm and twist my body to reach the mouse, let alone move it.

I should have fixed this problem before starting the inventory work but the project was dropped on us unexpectedly early and hindsight is 20-20.

I've moved the mouse to the left side of the keyboard (and I am doing VERY badly using it left-handed) and I've ordered a ps/2 extender.

When I return, I'll spend two-three weeks going from one person's PC to another so I'll have to deal with whatever is there.

[VELISARIOS]

Originally Posted by lindajdunn

I saw a doctor Friday, who confirmed what I suspected: I have tennis elbow. Actually he used fancier words but the bottom line is that I will need to take some time off from sabre fencing after the SN.

The trigger for this was probably work-related as symptoms began almost immediately when I began the annual inventory audit that required using a very poorly designed (imho) program that required multiple mouse movements for every query, update, etc. There are NO keyboard shortcuts in that program and EVERYTHING requires multiple mouse movements and mouse clicks.

What the doctor did not/probably cannot tell me is what I'd like to know from someone here:

Once I start easing back into fencing, what can I do (in addition to footwork, obviously) that is least likely to slow recovery?

Can I practice without a partner? Stand in front of a mirror and practice parries? Practice advance-lunge with a sabre in my weapon hand?

I'm toying with the idea of taking epee lessons and doing this left-handed so I'm still working out but not risking reinjury. I have already moved my mouse to the left side of my keyboard at work.

Any suggestions from anyone with experience with this problem?

I have his problem 3 years ago.
The cure is to rest your hand for some weeks and then you can start your training again.
Three times per day you have to put ice to your hand, this help it and make it to recover faster.
I wish you luck and God bless you.

[Vince]

Originally Posted by lindajdunn

...I tend to be a little overly competitive.

Overly competitive for normal people? Or overly competitive for Womens Saber?. *runs really really fast and hides*

[lindajdunn]

Originally Posted by Vince

Overly competitive for normal people? Or overly competitive for Womens Saber?. *runs really really fast and hides*

Given what I've seen thus far, I think I'm off the scale on competitiveness when compared to normal people but only at the middle of the scale when compared to the average WS competitive fencer.

[DonnaP]

Hey Linda,

The best program for your elbow is a good therapist. Of course I am a bit biases as I am an Occupational therapist and Certified Hand Therapist. I love most of the info that Ordway provided - sounded very much like our "Epicondylosis" program. Be careful though of any therapist who insists on strengthening your arm. Too many yahoo type over aggressive therapists cause reinjury by pushing the strength thing. Ice, rest, ergonomic changes, gentle stretches, and giving your tissues time to heal are all necessary. I treat this diagnosis every day in my clinic and have had it as well. Patience will serve you well with this one. If you give me your location, I may be able to recommend someone - the only thing is that you will need a physician presecription to get to a therapist. Hope you do well at SN's - good luck!!!

Donna