Foil grounding out... or something

[Cookeit]

Can someone please help me with this problem?

While normally fencing I attack, hit, see an evident bend in the blade, and yet no lights go off.

Then I press the tip in with my finger and it works fine.

I even test on his lame and the light goes on.

Yet it continues to happen, I know I am hitting because I can see the blade bend, and the kinks left on my cheap blade.

Is it grounding out?
I am pretty sure I have sufficient tape on the tip though.

Also, is there anyway this problem could cause off-target lights? It goes off target while I am actually fencing, yet when I test it works fine (the bodycord is not coming out of the socket).

[HDG]

You might be hitting slightly flat and thus not depressing the tip while still vigorously bending the blade.

[Cookeit]

I am pretty sure I was hitting straight on, but it is a possibility.

[noodle]

grounding out is a possibility. have you tried testing it slowly? tried putting a bend in the blade and holding it there with your hands while depressing the tip on the opponent's lame?

[DHCJr]

There are 3 posibilities that are most likely. As Noodle said test on a box depress the tip and bend the blade and see if the light goes on. It could be a stretched spring bulging in the middle or a intermittent short at the barrel.

There also could be something on the edge of a tip or a cracked tip, but most likely this would cause off-targets not no lights.

The one I see most often is those who say they have sufficient tape or they just taped it. When I look at the taping I see an 1/8" to 1/4" showing at the top of the barrel. The usual excuse is their coach told them not to get the tape too high or it will jam the tip. Under the old timing this was not a problem. With the new timing just this little bit will cause you to get no touch especially when the blade bends. Look at the taping again making sure there is no barrel edge showing at the top.

[finnfence]

It's also vaguely possible that the problem is that under the foil timings, you get no light quite a lot of the time if you hit hard against a hard surface. It's especially the case with masks and chest protectors (even under layers and layers of clothing), but I've also had it happen when hitting my husband (who has really low body fat) on the collar bone or rib.

I'm not an armorer, so I don't understand why hard hits have this effect (maybe someone here can explain it). I've just seen people lose tournaments because of it, even at a world-class level, especially when fencing a slim opponent whose chest protector covers about a third of her available target area. I know President Roach meant well with the new timings, but there are still a few bugs in the machine, so to speak. All you can really do if this is your problem is change your style, or try to make sure you always have a 20% point margin on your opponent, to make up for the non-scoring hits.

[Cookeit]

Can someone please explain how grounding out works?

Also how tape prevents it?

[mrbiggs]

Yes.

In foil, the machine knows that you hit when the two lines in your body cord are not electrically connected. (The B and C lines). The C line goes to your bellguard and blade, while the B connects to the wire and spring. When the tip is depressed, it is no longer connected to the barrel electrically, and the connection is broken.

When you hit someone on the lame with no tape, what can happen is the C line (any part of the barrel or blade) will hit the lame, as will the B line (tip). Therefore, even though you're hitting the lame, as far as the machine is concerned, the tip isn't depressed, because the electricity can go through the lame and connect them.

[Cookeit]

If it's any part of the blade, why don't we tape the entire thing?

I'm guessing because it's not likely that the base or lower part would touch at the same time...

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Cookeit

If it's any part of the blade, why don't we tape the entire thing?

I'm guessing because it's not likely that the base or lower part would touch at the same time...

If you land the point on the tape, it will behave as if you hit off target...which will stop the action. if you hit the bare blade with the tip, it'll ground out same as if you hit the guard.

the 15 cm length is probably an arbitrary length...long enogh to provide protection from a legitimate hit grounding out on the lame, but not so long that you may present the risk of a white light ON the blade.

[H Man]

Might help to explain that the neophyte's A line is actually part of his opponet's circuit and his opponent's A is his circuit (Aligator clipped line)

Touches redirect the currect from his B to the opponent's A through his opponent's lame- unless the current in the B line can travel to his barrel-blade-C ground-because of the inadequate tape.