counter attack followed by a parry riposte

[catwood1]

I was recently asked this by a club mate, and I had absolutely no idea what the answer is. How do you call the following action?

Fencer A attacks. Fencer B stop hits and his light goes on. Fencer A continues. Fencer B parry ripostes and looks like he hit the target, but his valid light was already on from the counter attack. Fencer A quickly remises and his valid light goes on. Who gets the touch, and what is the call?

A) Attack counter attack for A.
B) Attack by A, parry riposte B.
C) Attack by A is no, counter attack by B is good, remise by A, touch for B.
D) Im too stupid to think of the real answer.

Those are the only things I could think of. There could possibly be more, let me know.

[theLuz]

as you called the action, "C".
If B had time to parry before A hit, A's initial attack did not land, Touch to B

[pokey]

Was A's initial attack simple or compound?

[Shi no Tenshi]

The attack was parried, so it lost the ROW. I'd say attack by A no, counter attack by B yes. That's it. The attack was slow enough to be parried correctly after a stop hit, and since there was already a valid hit on target, the reposte is just a safety net and good thinking by B.
Was this sabre or foil? I love me a good stop cut to the wrist->parry.

[catwood1]

Sorry, I forgot to mention that it is foil. And it is a simple attack. B stop hits at the beginning of A's advance before his lunge, then parries ripostes during the lunge.

[OROD]

Attack from A, no.
Counter-attack from B arrives.
Touch B.

.

[pokey]

In that case I'll throw my highly unexpert hat in for:
Preparation by A
Attack by B arrives.
Touch B

[OROD]

Originally Posted by pokey

In that case I'll throw my highly unexpert hat in for:
Preparation by A
Attack by B arrives.
Touch B

Wrong! He didnt describe any preparation, just an attack.

.

[pokey]

Doh, I read it as B stop hit valid during the advance portion of A's advance-lunge.

See why I don't like to ref?

[theLuz]

If this was a real situation (I don't know if it's theoretical or real), was the machine modified with the new timing? If so, that's a lot of fencing in a small amount of time.......

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by catwood1

Fencer A attacks. Fencer B stop hits and his light goes on. Fencer A continues. Fencer B parry ripostes and looks like he hit the target, but his valid light was already on from the counter attack. Fencer A quickly remises and his valid light goes on. Who gets the touch, and what is the call?

A) Attack counter attack for A.
B) Attack by A, parry riposte B.
C) Attack by A is no, counter attack by B is good, remise by A, touch for B.
D) Im too stupid to think of the real answer.

C looks right to me. The attack by A didn't arrive, only a remise. The fact that B's parry kept the attack from arriving -- good job, B! -- relieved the referee of the need to decide if B's counterattack was in time or not.

[rsy]

I am not sure that under the new timing there would be enough time for A's remise to arrive before being locked out, but let's assume that it could happen.

A's initial action is simple, therefore B's stop hit has no ROW. A continues but his blade is parried which causes his attack to end. When an attack ends with the opponent's light on, the ref calls halt. Having been subjected to a valid touch, A has no right to remise or continue after his attack ends. A's attack, no. B's counterattack, yes. Touch for B.

B's riposte is irrelevant and cannot arrive since his first touch has already locked him out. See t51.

-r

[introspective]

Originally Posted by catwood1

I was recently asked this by a club mate, and I had absolutely no idea what the answer is. How do you call the following action?

Fencer A attacks. Fencer B stop hits and his light goes on. Fencer A continues. Fencer B parry ripostes and looks like he hit the target, but his valid light was already on from the counter attack. Fencer A quickly remises and his valid light goes on. Who gets the touch, and what is the call?

A) Attack counter attack for A.
B) Attack by A, parry riposte B.
C) Attack by A is no, counter attack by B is good, remise by A, touch for B.
D) Im too stupid to think of the real answer.

Those are the only things I could think of. There could possibly be more, let me know.

Doesn't the action stop when the first light goes on? It would go to the Stop Hit, the fact that fencer A continues in spite of the Light [was it valid and why didn't the Director call a halt at the light and resume the action after he calls the play ] however.....A continues, and it's parried, and Fencer B once again hit's the target. The point would go to Fencer B, but I would really have stopped the play at the first light.
And I would have said it just like that: "A attacks, B stop hits, point goes to B - you kept going A and even though you remise, it's not in time - point to B"

Then fencer A turns around and says "oh my god you sawwwwww what happened". Then fencer B looks embarrassed; then the Ref. says 'Yes, I did, Point goes to B and if you say one more word I give you a Yellow card".

[keropie]

The light doesn't cause the stop. That's one of the primary assumptions of ROW. Hell, even in epee after the first hit you have some time to make your own hit and have it count. So no, no one should call halt with that light, or at least if they do they should allow the continuous action in progress by the opponent to finish. Of course, the rub in this case is that the continuous action fails as it's parried, and the second action (the remise) is what arrives, out of time, as they say.

[RPI Epeeist]

Sounds to me like B deserves 2 points

[OROD]

Originally Posted by RPI Epeeist

Sounds to me like B deserves 2 points

Certainly if you're going to do a counter-attack that's the right way to do it. Hit and then make sure you dont get hit. But it's still a counter, you take your risk and hope the other guy doesnt land, else it's his touch.

BTW... it's not attack from A, counter from B, and then remise from A. It's all one action from A... it just doesnt hit.

.

[RPI Epeeist]

Originally Posted by OROD

Certainly if you're going to do a counter-attack that's the right way to do it. Hit and then make sure you dont get hit. But it's still a counter, you take your risk and hope the other guy doesnt land, else it's his touch.

BTW... it's not attack from A, counter from B, and then remise from A. It's all one action from A... it just doesnt hit.

.

Right, its all one action from A up until B's parry. Once that parry is made, actions are over in my eyes... doesn't matter whether A's light went off or not.

I think I'm going to call this action a riposte-parry for B

[the ancient one]

so you say in time sequence:
A's attack starts
B's stop hit arrives.
B's parry riposte arrives
finally A's remise of the attack arrives.

the call:

Stop Hit, point for B
why? because it arrives before the beginning of A's final action. The remise is a new action after losing the right of way to B's parry and as stated- begins after B's stop arrives.

Even if the stop hit missed it just B's parry riposte ahead of the remise.

[OROD]

Originally Posted by the ancient one

so you say in time sequence:
A's attack starts
B's stop hit arrives.
B's parry riposte arrives
finally A's remise of the attack arrives.

the call:

Stop Hit, point for B
why? because it arrives before the beginning of A's final action. The remise is a new action after losing the right of way to B's parry and as stated- begins after B's stop arrives.

Even if the stop hit missed it just B's parry riposte ahead of the remise.

Let me say it again, there NO REMISE! There's only a simple attack from A, which doesnt land because of the post-counter parry. Once that attack is over, the action is over and the call can be made. Attack no, counter yes.

.

[the ancient one]

Originally Posted by catwood1

".... Fencer A quickly remises and his valid light goes on. Who gets the touch, and what is the call?..."

Did I miss something? I think I read remise above. Still...If B does a parry riposte then anything A does is not the original attack, you choose: remise, reprise, redoublement. The thing that A does is after the parry and way after the stop hit.

I have described the entire phrase. From the standpoint of calling the halt, yes, you can say there is no remise in the sense that nothing exists after the halt and as a director I would just call the stop hit as previously posted. If asked to reconstruct the sequence, I would give the entire phrase. What you name the action is in context to the entire phrase.

I see your point, but by removing the context I think that you wind up with the conclusion that stop hits do not exist anywhere except in the rule book. Maybe that is right. The Canadian handbook just allows calls (in order of priority):
point in line
attack
riposte
counter attack
remise/reprise/redoublement

would you ever call an action a stop hit while directing?