Two hours in line for weapons check!!

[happy]

I've never been early enough to go to weapons check the night before, but that line tonight was insane!!! Is that typical?

[formerfencer]

For big events (JOs, summer carnival), yes.
Much better to have a 2-hour line the night before than the morning of your event.
I actually try to arrive in time to check the day before so that 1) I don't deal with the stress of the lines and 2) I can fix any problems that come up (instead of running in circles to get a new lame, find a marker, get it checked and missing my warm-up bouts... not that happened twice before I learned my lesson).

[piste off]

How late are the weapons checks open?

Rick

[twisterfencing]

Yep

Everyone is trying to get there early, get everything checked (sometimes 3-4 days in advance) and getting it over with.

Gary Spruill

Originally Posted by happy

I've never been early enough to go to weapons check the night before, but that line tonight was insane!!! Is that typical?

[4qtrs]

Originally Posted by piste off

How late are the weapons checks open?

Rick

I believe they open up from 4-6pm the night before. The trick is to get in the line before the doors close.

My understanding was that they only had two armorers checking gear and about 300 people in line.

[remise]

Oh. Bummer.

[LeftHanded]

Weapons Check? I have only ever had to get mask and body cord then others got their lames checked.

[Dee EffEll]

Originally Posted by LeftHanded

Weapons Check? I have only ever had to get mask and body cord then others got their lames checked.

I've never had to do weapons check prior to reporting to the strip in a USFA event, but it is done at FIE events. I presume the term "weapons check" in this thread is meant generically, and they mean requipment check.

Last time I stood in line for equipment check, the line was fairly short, but growing longer. We had to wait maybe 20 minutes, but that whole time, the woman in front of me stood in line chatting it up with her friends while she was leaning on her bag. Only when the armorer called "next?" did she drag herself away from the conversation, roll her entire bag over to the armorer table, and then start rooting around in it for her stuff. You guessed it, she couldn't find her cords, and her saber jacket was stuffed under her weapons. The armorer waited patiently for 3 minutes while she dug her stuff out.

Was one of the rudest things I've seen in a long time. At least she put her cell phone down.

[larkmaj]

Originally Posted by Dee EffEll

Only when the armorer called "next?" did she drag herself away from the conversation, roll her entire bag over to the armorer table, and then start rooting around in it for her stuff. You guessed it, she couldn't find her cords, and her saber jacket was stuffed under her weapons. The armorer waited patiently for 3 minutes while she dug her stuff out.

Was one of the rudest things I've seen in a long time. At least she put her cell phone down.

Lucky she got a patient armorer. Should have sent her to the back of the line so she would have time to get her stuff in order.

[Jay Young]

I've seen it done, too!

[formerfencer]

Took five minutes on Friday afternoon.

[Frank Pratt]

Originally Posted by Dee EffEll

Last time I stood in line for equipment check, the line was fairly short, but growing longer. We had to wait maybe 20 minutes, but that whole time, the woman in front of me stood in line chatting it up with her friends while she was leaning on her bag. Only when the armorer called "next?" did she drag herself away from the conversation, roll her entire bag over to the armorer table, and then start rooting around in it for her stuff. You guessed it, she couldn't find her cords, and her saber jacket was stuffed under her weapons. The armorer waited patiently for 3 minutes while she dug her stuff out.

She should have been sent to the end of the line. another 20+ minutes would give her plenty of time to finish her conversation and to get her crap out of her bag. If this resulted in her being late for her pool and black carded (or getting a few red cards for each both for uninspected equipment,) then that's not the armorer's problem.

I helped out a little when the armorer was busy during the épée and foil events at the GA Divisional Championships. No one unpacked their bags in front of me, but I was amazed at how many people tossed hopelessly tangled balls of 2-3 body cords on the table. I should not have tolerated this, but this a pretty short line, and we were able to get everything inspected in 20-30 minutes.

It takes 15-30 seconds just to untangle cords. A decent armorer can to inspect 3 body cords, a lame, a mask, and an overglove or two in what, 60 seconds or less? In EffEll's example, the armourer could have helped at least 3other fencers (perhaps 6+, if they were epeeists) while the girl searched for her gear. Heck, he could have helped a few fencers in the time it took her to walk to the back of the line to wait again.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Frank Pratt

She should have been sent to the end of the line. another 20+ minutes would give her plenty of time to finish her conversation and to get her crap out of her bag. If this resulted in her being late for her pool and black carded (or getting a few red cards for each both for uninspected equipment,) then that's not the armorer's problem.

I helped out a little when the armorer was busy during the épée and foil events at the GA Divisional Championships. No one unpacked their bags in front of me, but I was amazed at how many people tossed hopelessly tangled balls of 2-3 body cords on the table. I should not have tolerated this, but this a pretty short line, and we were able to get everything inspected in 20-30 minutes.

It takes 15-30 seconds just to untangle cords. A decent armorer can to inspect 3 body cords, a lame, a mask, and an overglove or two in what, 60 seconds or less? In EffEll's example, the armourer could have helped at least 3other fencers (perhaps 6+, if they were epeeists) while the girl searched for her gear. Heck, he could have helped a few fencers in the time it took her to walk to the back of the line to wait again.

At Jr. PCCs this year we were telling people to unwind the cords before giving them to us...or they didn't get tested. Didn;t happen very often, however...the armorers out here have managed to tain SOME of teh fencers at least!

Once you lay the law down and the fencers understand that, for the moment, you, the armorer, hold their fate in your hands, they get a little more cooperative.

Of course, there are always those who have yet to learn rule #1 of control....never piss off teh armorer (funny how their stuff ends up at the bottom of teh work pile...)

[sleepyweasle]

I actually want to compliment the armoury personnel - our weapons check experience was most pleasant! No line (Sat afternoon), the whole check took approximately 5 minutes AND, as a bonus, our friendly armourer gave us some valuable tips for making our own head cords!

I give our weapons check experience 2 thumbs up!

[brtech]

The line got pretty long on Thursday. We're not happy about that.

There were 8 armorers, and often a volunteer available in total. We opened the line at 1, rather than 4, but we only had 3 people working the line for the early part of the afternoon. The others were setting up the venue. We added a fourth, and then, when the strips were all setting up, we all worked the line.

There is a tradeoff between when you open the line, and how many armorers work the line. If we started at 4, we would have had more armorers on the line.

Although it was long, the result was that the Friday morning line was not too bad. Had we not gotten all the equipment checked on Thur, it would have been a lot worse.

Please understand: we started at 9 and worked straight until 7. We only started as late as 9 because of logistics; not everything was delivered before Wednesday like it should have. Normal working hours for armorers working USFA events is 6:30 report to venue (breakfast is served in the venue), 7:00 start of equipment checks, some staff leaves between 6 and 7, and the rest stays until the last bout is done, usually around 10. Yeah, that's right, we normally start at 6:30 and end at 10 something. Then do it again the next day.

We're constantly yelling "Next" and not having the person in the front of the line hear it. Sometimes you could hear us say "Next person paying attention". If you are second in line, and that happens, by all means, leave the shmuck on the cellphone yacking and come on down.

We asked, we begged, we put up signs, we yelled, we had people walk the line. We requested:

• All equipment out of bags, ready for inspection
• Lames right side out, zipped
• Cords unwrapped long enough to test, old inspection marks removed

We get maybe 20% compliance with those requests.

If you rumbled up with a bag, we asked you to unload it across the aisle and bring us your stuff.

If you brought your lame inside out, we asked you to make it right side out, and we coped with it not being zipped.

If you dumped your wrapped cords out of your mask with a zillion old marks, you got a look, we did the first one, and asked you to fix the rest.

All of that is one really big reason the line is long. It takes about twice as long to test someone not prepared as it does someone who is prepared.

[happy]

I give a lot of credit to the people checking the gear - I've always had a good, quick experience at national tournaments. I also thought there seemed to be as many or more there on Thursday as I had ever seen at a big tournament.

My surprise was in the number of people that showed up early. We haven't come early to many tournaments due to school/work/scheduling so this was a new experience. Given the numbers, I'm not sure much could have done to avoid it - there are only so many people qualified to do this I guess.

And I agree that the people in line were like zombies and that didn't help. Neither did the fact that so many people joined their 'friends' at the head of the line. The line friday AM was still pretty long - I can only imagine how long it would have been if there wasn't an early check!

[introspective]

I've only had a mask checked, and it was just so low tech, I didn't really see the point.

But perhaps it's time for an update for the Nationals and so here's a thought.
Weapons, masks, cords, gear etc all gets checked at the table where you fence. You just bring your stuff to the strip that you're assigned to for the day and they do the entire thing there. If they don't pass, then it's god-speed. Just in little local events they make people pass everything, it should stand to reason, that each fencer should have the right stuff by the time they get to Nationals.

In looking at the numbers, it's too huge an event. I see it all moving into other events with the nationals being the clearing house to move into the North American Cup Competitions. The only alternative to all of this, and brining the Nat's up to it's previous standard is to separate events so that its not such a circus.

How would it be to have all Youth/Cadet [it's really almost the same thing] and all under 18 fencers fence the same days as wheelchair and over 50? I feel that USFA accommodates parents a great deal in keeping them together so that they can fence on the same day as their kids, but you have to eventually understand that to make a great fencing event parents just may have to give it up to allow someone with real promise fence to the max so he or she can move up.

Does that sound mean?

[fencerwallet]

Are you serious? There is no way equipment could be checked at the strip. First, you'd have to have the proper tools and equipment at each of the 70 strips at SN. Then, who is supposed to do the checking, the directors? No way that happens. Where are you going to get armorers to man each strip? Not to mention the additional time it would take away from the actual fencing that is supposed to be conducted at the strips, which would then result in delays in completing events which already are all day marathons.

My son fenced that first day Friday but had his gear checked Friday morning, not Thurs. He waited, but not forever. In line with him were all sorts of people who were not fencing until Sat. On Sat., there were almost no lines whatsoever. Later that day, I stopped to talk to one of the armorers, because they had no one in line. So, bottom line (no pun), I think the Thursday situation was the result of alot of things, and was not illustrative of how weapons check ran for most of the tournament.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by introspective

I've only had a mask checked, and it was just so low tech, I didn't really see the point.

You are quite naive. The activity of the armorer making the mask check may have seemed low tech.

But you are completely discounting the years, sometimes the decades, of experience behind the visual check by the armorer.

Masks fall into patterns. The condition of the outside of the bib, the inside of the bib, numerous aspects of the visual appearance of the cage, the band on Foil/Epee masks, the rivets on all masks have a consistency.

The pattern on most masks is supportive of a safe mask. So the armorer uses his mask tester in a couple of places and stamps it.

But if any of the aspects of the mask raise suspicions, then the whole thing is examined most closely.

Did the armorer put a fingernail under the, usually rubber or elastic, band of a F/E mask? A certain number of those will be either set aside or improved immediately with a glue gun or hot air tool.

In a properly operating armoring crew, the less experienced will refer any suspicions about a mask to the more experienced.

The mask inspection/test is the single most important part of the euipment check. It involves safety, not fairness of competition by Lame tests and not time delay of the fencing by checking body cords.

So do you want responsibility for this safety check transferred to the 60 strips and the referees who may not know one end of a mask tester from the other?

[introspective]

The mask is checked manually upon entering; they count weapons to see if you've brought enough and they'll mark a weapon 'rotten' if it doesn't pass.
They do a visual inspection of clothing at the strip so it's not a big deal.

After that the director and any referee's have the power to eliminate a weapon or cords, through weapons checks at the piste, as well as eliminate anything else that is not up to par.


Once you pass through those buzzer doors, anything can happen [which is why they have checks at each strip before each round robbin]
and any weapon is allowed to be eliminated. That's where some of the quarrelling comes in: 'the man at the door 'tested' it" "it passed at the gate" "there was nothing wrong with it yesterday"

The point being that anything can be eliminated later on.
It would probably actually save a great deal of time if you had a check in at the strip with only seven or eight people being checked simultaneously around the gym.