three-weapon machine for under $200

[ALFREDII]

I am currently designing a prototype three-weapon fencing machine that I would like to produce and sell. This machine would support foil, epee, and sabre and would be equipt with the new timing requirements. I plan on selling the machine for under $100 and am trying to get a general idea of what the market would be like for a product like this.

(i.e. Would you buy one?)

edit: detailes available at www.siyonelectronics.com

[theLuz]

Originally Posted by ALFREDII

I am currently designing a prototype three-weapon fencing machine that I would like to produce and sell. This machine would support foil, epee, and sabre and would be equipt with the new timing requirements. I plan on selling the machine for under $100 and am trying to get a general idea of what the market would be like for a product like this.

(i.e. Would you buy one?)

probably. My closest club is an hour away and if I had a machine, I might could stir up some people closer. The problem becomes the reels. I wouldn't have a permenant location, so I'd have to have regular reals and they are high.

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by ALFREDII

I am currently designing a prototype three-weapon fencing machine that I would like to produce and sell. This machine would support foil, epee, and sabre and would be equipt with the new timing requirements. I plan on selling the machine for under $100 and am trying to get a general idea of what the market would be like for a product like this.

(i.e. Would you buy one?)

speaking for myself, none of the organizations I'm involved with (a HS, a club, and a division) would buy them as we are all set for machines right now and STRONGLY prioritize time and score (and can afford to do so).

That said, don't be discouraged by my example, as it is much more the exception than the rule.

your market is likely to be smaller clubs and college clubs with very limited budgets. there are quite a few of them out there, so you should do okay. Additionally, some teams with larger budgets could see value to these machines for practice purposes only.

This could also be a good machine for personal use. available for under $100, it's useful for a person who has space to set up a strip and a few opponents, but whose organized club is a little far away (again, not me, as I live 4.3 miles from my club).

one thing I'd note: PLEASE try to make the lights big enough, even if it means a little more expensive.

-m

[EpeeConvert]

I would buy one in a heart beat. But i agree with theLuz as reels are another expensive item that would be very useful if you could find someway to bring the price down. A dream item would be a cheaper version of the Favero reels, seem durable, easy to pack, and reliable. i would prefer something of that design, though not necesarilly of that quality.

[Jay83]

Having someone at your own club build your boxes works very well... we currently have three boxes all made by people within the club. Then all we have to worry about is purchasing reels.

I'm sure people have made their own reels before. I've seen some with clothes hanger reels, elastic rope and a wire. It didn't seem easy to set up though.

Smaller clubs or new clubs could definitely benefit from a $100 box.

[catwood1]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PLEASE BUILD A CHEAP BOX!!!!!!
Speaking for my rediculously poor college club, anything that works, and is cheap would be great. I am sure there are other small programs out there, albeit college clubs or small clubs that right now only have 1 or 2 boxes, that could afford to get more if they were so cheap.

[Eejit]

Damn glad to see that people are finally deciding against a 900% markup. I can't believe that current vendors have the gall to charge $1000+ for a scoring machine. For $1000 I could make a killer desktop PC and hire a programmer in India to program a scoring app for me. Like seriously... it's nearly criminal how much people charge for scoring boxes. CRIMINAL!

Cheaper floor reels would be pretty neat too. I'd imagine you could probably make pretty decent floor reels for like $100, especially since it seems like you're taking some sort of approach that doesn't involve a sweatshop or you and your mother in your basement.

PLEASE MAKE IT!

[Greg]

Our college club would buy at least two as long as they are reliable. I wish someone would make a cheap reel. I heard of this bungee cord system from Triplette, but never saw it in action.

[pokey]

Originally Posted by Greg

Our college club would buy at least two as long as they are reliable. I wish someone would make a cheap reel. I heard of this bungee cord system from Triplette, but never saw it in action.

A really apotentially nnoying problem with the bungee cord system is that unless the geometry and alignment of the pulleys are right (or at least, more so than our eyehook in the wall system), the bungee cord slips off the pulley. They're also annoying to pack and unpack too. Tangles and all that.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Does anyone know who Alfred II is? Does anyone know if you can even get off-the-shelf parts to make a machine for under $100 before a respectable profit is tacked on? I'm just curious...because I could see a market for such a machine. And IF it can be built for $100, epeemike, I bet it could be build with time and score for $200, don't you think? Now, if we could only get bluetooth wireless going, then we wouldn't have to WORRY about those damned expensive reels OR those cumbersome overhead systems!

[Monash_Armourer]

The problem with building a box is not so much being able to get the components for the electronics, but actually the programming of the EPROMS to control the machines functions and timings. You also need to provide updates in a timely manner to those who purchase your box.

In terms of cost, the most expensive single part may indeed be the casing you choose to house the electronics in, this is of course assuming you already possess all the appropriate materials to produce the pcb's you'll need to mount everything on.

All this considered, making a simple three weapon box for under $100 is most definitely achievable, but if you're selling it for that it most definitely will not be a profitable venture, especially if you're only producing a few of them.

One other problem is that you won't be able to get FIE certification for your box cheaply, this will limit your potential market to clubs who specifically need them for training and probably not for use in anything more than local complementations (I don't know what stipulations the USFA has on box requirements for competitions), which might not be a problem for you.

Now, heres where it really starts to get complex. We're now adding scoring and a remote. Implementing the hardware for scoring in the box itself isn't going to be any more difficult than what you've so far achieved, it's just going to increase the number of components. The REALLY difficult part is designing and implementing the remote control and it's functions. While components would not more than double the costs of materials, it would certainly more than double the investment of time you'd be putting into the boxes development. You might be reluctant letting it go for $200, especially in small numbers.

Wireless? Now you're really getting complex at least in terms of reporting the touch (as opposed to recognizing the touch). Double the cost of materials again, because now you're actually making two boxes and a satellite "repeater" (which takes the place of the original box, and tracks scoring). This is going to be an even greater time investment.

Good luck in your endeavour.

[Monash_Armourer]

Originally Posted by pokey

A really apotentially nnoying problem with the bungee cord system is that unless the geometry and alignment of the pulleys are right (or at least, more so than our eyehook in the wall system), the bungee cord slips off the pulley. They're also annoying to pack and unpack too. Tangles and all that.

Some members of my club (from before I was there) developed a system similar to the overhead bungee, for use in place of reels at tournaments (I think the previous armourers got sick and tired of trying to repair and maintian the old Uhlmann uprights) so it's essentially a floor based version of the bungee system, without the pulleys.

I get to whip these out for a tournament next week, I'll see if I can get some pictures. I'd probably not be tempted to use them for anything other than a tournament however, they're not exactly out of the way when not in use and could be a potential hazzard due to the fact they're not out of the way when not in use.

[ALFREDII]

Thanks for the input. I have already done the math and I know I could sell the machine for under $100. I am able to do my own PCB fab and assembly, which reduces costs considerably. This box would be designed as an economical alternative to the outrageously priced machines on the market today. Since I would be producing them in my free time I could get away with selling them for less. The machine would be built around a microcomputer and would therefore be as reliable and accurate as any other machine out there. I have also been looking into designing inexpensive reels and I think it can be done but I want to start producing the machine first. I hope to start selling in less than a month so keep your eyes open (once the prototype is done I will set up a website).

[jfarmer]

Originally Posted by Monash_Armourer

Some members of my club (from before I was there) developed a system similar to the overhead bungee, for use in place of reels at tournaments (I think the previous armourers got sick and tired of trying to repair and maintian the old Uhlmann uprights) so it's essentially a floor based version of the bungee system, without the pulleys.

I get to whip these out for a tournament next week, I'll see if I can get some pictures. I'd probably not be tempted to use them for anything other than a tournament however, they're not exactly out of the way when not in use and could be a potential hazzard due to the fact they're not out of the way when not in use.

What I did with our's (based on what TCA sells) is to fasten a swivel snap on the ends of the bungee cord. Then the three components; bungee cord and 2 signal wires can be rolled up separately. We also made some 20 lb weights with an eyebolt sticking up in the center, a handle on one end, and wrapped them with "pleather" & a non-slip material. I can send a couple of my students out to the gym with 2 machines on a stand, 4 weights, & 2 boxes of wires; and they can have it setup in less than 10 minutes, usually less than 5...

There is an issue with the wires & bungee cord running on the floor near the strip edge, but in practice it's rarely a problem. I did have an epeeist at a tournament that insisted on stepping off to that side & on the bungee..

In respect to the pulleys, don't use the small ones like TCA supplies. Head ove to one of the "big box hardware" store such as Lowes or Home Depot and get some replacement pulleys. What you want are the 4" (or larger) pulleys with a plastic hanger & follower to prevent the wire or cord from jumping off. While you're there, go ahead and get snaps with swivels fasten the various pulleys, bungee cords, and wires together.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

[DieterS]

Eejit, in case you're interested, the markup is nowhere near the 900% that you quoted.

Price is heavily dependent on volume. Thus, the price of the expensive, high-end machines consists of the engineering, tooling, parts inventory, finance, and other costs divided by the number of machines expected to sell over a period of time. Then, you add the manufacturing costs, packaging, advertising, and shipping. Oh, and let's say that maybe you want to make some profit to make it worth your while. Are you planning to pay any salaries (this is a big motivator for employees). Very roughly, manufacturing profits are in the range of 15-33%. Retail sales markup is typically in the range of 100%. These approximations vary depending on industry.

The problem is when you compare the prices of low-volume fencing electronics with ultra-high volume consumer electronics. High volume products can deliver a lot more value for the buck! Also, it's really easy to say, "I could build one of those for a fifth of the price." And you could probably do it (we did). But what about building hundreds of them? How much is your time worth to you?

Using consumer electronics might be something to look into. For example, I believe there was a recent thread here about reusing old laptop PCs as scoring machines. They could provide a great display device. Of course you will need to keep wild foilists far away from them or cover the screens with a sheet of lexan! Come to think about some foilists I've seen, it might not be a bad idea to cover everything nearby with lexan.

Dieter

----------------
Dieter Schlaepfer
President, Eigertek

[EricS]

You could also look at the freely available scoring machine design I placed under the GPL (General Public License), located here.

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by Beloit Fencer of Old

Does anyone know who Alfred II is? Does anyone know if you can even get off-the-shelf parts to make a machine for under $100 before a respectable profit is tacked on? I'm just curious...because I could see a market for such a machine.
..

My understanding is that parts prices are the least problem. More of an issue is the printed circuit board, getting it populated with parts etc., and then programming the processor. You can probably do all that in the $100. range depending on how many you are willing to risk building up. The price jump comes from the wholesale to retail leap. Then the $100-$150 box becomes $200-$300. and that price is forced by the costs of keeping a retail organization running especially in a small market such as fencing. So for a box retailing for $100 the manufacturer needs to look at a wholesale price of $50. So go figure out how many you need to sell and how lucrative you think the market is.

A year or so ago I was in touch with a gentleman who was investigating making folded sheet metal epees, a la Leon Paul. He was working in one of the rust belt cities and knew the manufacturing business. He had it worked out that he could manufacture the blades and tang parts and have them welded up for just under USD $50. Our conversation was based around my interest in obtaining such blades and my possibly working with him as sales and marketing. I pointed out that Leon Paul weapons were at around that price (then) retail and what would be the marketing pitch for an unknown trying to sell at a retail price greater than LP. And then I asked if he had considered the probable patents that LP ought to have (not that I know if they have them or not). I never heard back from him and I've heard of no new provider of such weapons.

Not saying to not do it but do do due diligence in checking the market and possible intellectual property considerations. I would suggest going to the Summer Nationals or a NAC and checking the existing retailers. It can be an eye opener.

[DieterS]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

My understanding is that parts prices are the least problem.

Yep, you have it exactly right!

Dieter

[finnfence]

Assuming you make them with fast reset times and easy-to-see lights, we'd be in the market for eight of them. Send me a message when you get to that point.

[ALFREDII]

Hello again. I am making lots of progress on the prototype machine and I should be putting the unit into production pretty soon. I would however like to know what types of lights people prefer. I have considered using bi-color LEDs as well as single color LEDs. Inorder to keep costs down I would probably use amber color LEDs for the off-target indicators instead of white LEDs. Personaly I don't mind fencing on machines that use this color LED for off-target but my coach doesn't like them so it would be great to get some input about this. It would also be good to know if people prefer one light on each side that can indicat either on or off target (this would be accomplished with the bi-color LEDs). I would also appreciate some input about what kinds of sound people preffer.

Thanks!