Foil problem- huh?

[Applesauce and Foils]

I am new to the electrical circuit (pun intended) so I don't have any idea what is going on with my weapon.

My electrical foil is fairly new. How new? It has a good covering of scratches on the bell guard but its still shiny. I haven't overused it. It passed consistently at my competition, BUT when the body cord was plugged in and I came on guard it would go off. All on its own without touching anything, it just goes off when I roll my hand over, or move the blade at all. If I'm holding it perfectly still it doesn't, but as soon as I move it, it beeps.

I thought at first this was a body cord problem but I tried it with a wrist-buzzer at my club and it did the same thing. Then we switched out the buzzer with a different weapon to make sure it was my foil and it was.

I'm assuming this has something to do with the blade not being in there good?

Thanks in advance for any help. Oh, and I searched the threads and couldn't find any advice on this specific problem so, sorry if I missed it.

[forethought]

I would check where the wire connects at the socket, sounds like it's a bit loose, and by turning your hand it's breaking contact. What kind of socket is it (French, German, Leon Paul bayonet, etc.), and where did you buy the foil (or did you or someone you know assemble it)?

[noodle]

as was mentioned, there's a break in the line somewhere. that could be in the socket, with a loose wire, or there could be a break in the wire in the blade, or in the tip.

try bending the blade and wiggling certain areas to try and get the light to go off.

[Goldgar]

First and simplest thing to check: make sure the handle is tight. If it's loose, the socket mounting may not make good contact with the guard, and that is required to complete the circuit.

[mrbiggs]

Also, make sure the barrel is not loose.

[Applesauce and Foils]

Originally Posted by forethought

I would check where the wire connects at the socket, sounds like it's a bit loose, and by turning your hand it's breaking contact. What kind of socket is it (French, German, Leon Paul bayonet, etc.), and where did you buy the foil (or did you or someone you know assemble it)?

Its an Absolute Fencing two-prong socket, I think its a french point but I'm not certain. Thanks for everybody's help!

[Eejit]

Okay, my personal checklist:

1. Check the part of the socket where you plug your bodycord in. Look to see if the the wire that runs from your blade to the socket is loose. If it is, properly attach and tighten it.

2. If this is not the case, try bending the blade up and down pretty far plugged in. If the light goes off, you're going to need to rewire probably.

3. Check the BARREL at the end of the blade. That means the ENTIRE bit of crap on the end of the blade. Grab it [the barrel] at the base and see if you can twist it by hand. IF you can, tighten it.

4. If this still isn't working, you might try cleaning your tip. To do this, take the tape off your tip. Now unscrew those small screws on the side. Make sure you're holding the tip down otherwise it'll fly off. After you unscrew the screws and take teh tip and the spring out, spray some WD40 in there and then clean it out with a cue tip. Screw everything back in and try again.

5. If none of this is working, take the handle off. After that, remove the bell guard pad. Make sure that the bare wire is not exposed anywhere (ie. insulation is missing). If insulation is missing, use some electrical tape to fix the breach in the insulation.

6. If none of this still works, look along your blade to see if there are is any bare wire exposed. If there is, you need to rewire.

If absolutely none of those identify your problem, I would try one more thing:

7. Replace your tip screws, your tip, and your tip spring. DO NOT REMOVE THE BARREL. DOING SO WILL CAUSE YOU TO NEED TO REWIRE!

If nothing else works, then assume that there is a problem with the wire. Go ahead and rewire it or ask your armorer to do it.

[Applesauce and Foils]

Problem fixed! Seems that it was a problem with the tip. What a relief! Thanks again.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Applesauce and Foils

Problem fixed! Seems that it was a problem with the tip. What a relief! Thanks again.

Congrats! Now explain exactly WHAT the tip problem was so s armorers can tell you how to keep it from happening...a lot can go wrong in foil.

[Applesauce and Foils]

Seems that the tip/barrel needed tightening. I'm still trying to grasp how an electric foil is constructed.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Applesauce and Foils

Seems that the tip/barrel needed tightening. I'm still trying to grasp how an electric foil is constructed.

The foot bone is connected to the ankle bone,
the ankle bone is connected to the leg bone,
the leg bone is connected to the knee bone, .....

or something like that.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Applesauce and Foils

Seems that the tip/barrel needed tightening. I'm still trying to grasp how an electric foil is constructed.

Here ya go:

The prime thing is to remember that foil is a normally closed electrical circuit...meaning at rest (the tip's not depressed), there's always conductivity.

Power comes up from your body cord (the center pin if it's a bayonet, the narrower of the 2 if it's a 2 pin design) and into the wire itself. Power travels up the wire to teh little brass cap in the cup. The spring sits on this brass cap...the other end of the spring is in contact with the base of the tip itself.

So power goes up the wure, into the brass cap, into the spring, into the tip (speficially the little flange at the base), and because the spring is pushing the tip up against the collar where the screws go...into he collar.

From the collar the power goes into teh screws, then to the barrel, and finally blade itself, which is the return path to ground.

When the tip is depressed, contact between the collar and the base of teh tip is broken (because of the screws holding the collar in place inside the barrel). at this point the box starts looking fro where power is going.

If you hit the bell guard or a grounded strip, nothing happens....as far as the box is concerned, you;re hitting air.

if you hit off target (head, arm, leg, or a non-grounded surface like a gym floor) continuity is broken....that's when the white lught goes on.

If you hit on target, power goes into the tip, into your opponent's lame, and out his A line (the one with the alligator clip). Thus...the a line is not your friend...if it goes to work carrying a charge, you;ve been hit.

Now....here's where YOUR particular problem comes in. The scoring boxes are very sophisticated pieces of equipment...but at the same time they're very stupid. The box neither knows nor cares WHERE the circuit break is...if it sees one, a light's coming on.

Thus, it is very important to keep everything nice & tight. What happened with you was the barrel shook and momentarily broke contact with the blade...and the box thought "circuit break....fire a light!!"

The major problem with foil is that there are SO MANY points of contact that could cause the same white light issue...barrel's loose, flange at the base of the tip is loose, corrosion on either or both ends of the spring blocking power flow (doesn;t take a lot to do so), broken wire at the base of the cup or inthe blade itself, crushed wire in the guard (under the nose of the grip if you don't line the notches up in teh grip or socket bracket), not sufficient insulation stripping of teh wire (especially in German wires), loose connection at the socket, loose grip, etc. And worse, if you have bare wire touching any part of the system other then the connection point in teh socket or in the cup, the circuit will never break because there's no break in continuity (usually by either a stripped wire somewhere, or a loose bare end touching the bracket or guard.

Welcome to armory!!!

p.s. a 5mm wrench is perfect for the flats of the barrel in foil.

[Applesauce and Foils]

Wow, thanks for the info! I'm glad you took the time to explain it to me.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Applesauce and Foils

Wow, thanks for the info! I'm glad you took the time to explain it to me.

I;m an armorer....it's what we do!

[larkmaj]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

I;m an armorer....it's what we do!

never ask an armorer how something works, because he'll tell you
-slightly altered line from a movie (mainly engineer->armorer)

[jfarmer]

Originally Posted by larkmaj

never ask an armorer how something works, because he'll tell you
-slightly altered line from a movie (mainly engineer->armorer)

You mean other people don't want to know all the details of how something works? And how to fix it if problem XXX happens?

Not that I've ever explained some technical point in excruciating detail...

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club