failing/testing lames

[fencingfrog]

this is mainly to the smart armorer people around here:

i was at a tournament this weekend (didnt fence well ) but i was told by the armourer that my lame almost failed. he passed it and it worked fine but said it wouldnt be acceptable at nationals or a really big tournament.

my questions are: what makes a lame fail? and how are they tested?

thank you!

[KD5MDK]

More than 5ohms resistance between two points.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

this is mainly to the smart armorer people around here:

i was at a tournament this weekend (didnt fence well ) but i was told by the armourer that my lame almost failed. he passed it and it worked fine but said it wouldnt be acceptable at nationals or a really big tournament.

my questions are: what makes a lame fail? and how are they tested?

thank you!

If it was the Pomme de Terre, it was probably me.

Lames fail because they lose conductivity ( ). Why they lose conductivity is of course another Encyclopedia.

Stainless Lames lose conductivity because the breaks in the little wires accumulate to the point where there are insufficient alternate pathways for a Foil point (or Sabre blade) to get an adequately short conductive path back to your alligator clip.

The breaks occur from from getting hits or from flexing of the fabric. Foil Lames have a typical failed area a third of the way from the arm hole to the zipper at just about the height of the bottom of the arm hole. From this area there are surrounding rings of less damage/less deterioration. An armorer can usually find a central dead spot and this is why he pronounces doom on the Lame. A dead spot is hard for the fencer to argue with.

Don't bother to put a patch on this central failed area. The surrounding rings of degradation continue to go bad and the dead spot "grows out from under the patch". The only way to get significant further use from the Lame is to patch the entire front. When I do this for fencers, they get about 80% additional wear from the Lame.

Sabre stainless Lames don't have a typical target area compared to Foil Lames. They go bad more from wrinkling than from hits. So there is not a convenient area where they can get patched to get additional use. My old Sabre stainless Lames had dead areas under the arm pits and in the elbow folds.

From my limited experience with Infinity Lames, they go bad as the silver component of the threads get leached out. And this can be very dependent on the sweat chemistry of the individual wearing it. Sometimes they can be patched between the neck and upper zipper where they are handled a lot. Under the glove/overglove area is another place which typically will go bad.

Real old silver Lames would build up corrosion between the silver bearing threads. This is why ammonia would temporarily and partially restore acceptable performance. The old "spray Windex on it and get it tested quick" approach. But there are not many of those still around. Although there are individuals with favorable sweat chemistry who will swear by their "30 year old Santelli".

A lot of the less expensive Lames available today use conductive fabrics utilizing nickel. The performance of these is highly dependent on individual's sweat chemistry, how often the salts are rinsed out and whether they are left stinking wet in a closed fencing bag. Some of them are dead within months. Armorers are quite suspicious of green stains around collars and along the sewed seams of Sabre masks.

Some one else will have to speak for the newer Lame types introduced within the last few years. I have insufficient experience over time to characterize them. Although I have heard second hand that exposure to the wrong chemicals can cause some to fail overnight

[fencingfrog]

so if a lame is too resistant to the electrical current then it fails? how does that little wand thing do that? why would that a lame break?

i feel like a real idiot

[remise]

Most inexperienced fencers (and/or parents) think that just because the lame registers a touch by an opponents weapon, it is good.

Nope.

If you read the rules, you will notice that there is a strict resistance limit for lames that is stated. Having your club armorer test your lame will insure that you don't run into any 'nasty surprises' at a tournament... particularly if you are fencing a tournament that you didn't expect testing to occur in.

If you don't have a club armorer, you can purchase the testing equipment yourself.

[fencerbill]

There is a quick and convenient way to test for dead spots on a Lame or Sabre mask using a scoring machine that lights up when the weapon guard contacts the Lame. Just move your weapon guard all over the surface and you will be able to detect any dead spots. This doesn't tell you what the resistance number is or whether it will pass/fail at a NAC. But you, or your referee, can tell if your opponent is being cheated by you having a bad Lame.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

so if a lame is too resistant to the electrical current then it fails? how does that little wand thing do that? why would that a lame break?

i feel like a real idiot

In progressing toward my Master's degree in physics we studied the electrical conductivity (inverse of resistance) in a uniform conductive layer. It turns out that this can be represented by the "resistance per square". If you stay away from the edges, the value of resistance measured doesn't depend on where the two test points are.

This is approximately true for a new Lame. So if you place the test probe anywhere on the Lame you should get the same value. Any different value means that the intrinsic conductivity of the material has degraded.

As stated, a Lame "breaks" because of accumulated damage or adverse chemical changes.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

so if a lame is too resistant to the electrical current then it fails? how does that little wand thing do that? why would that a lame break?

i feel like a real idiot

The 'wand' as you call it simulates a hit with a foil. Since a tip may not hit flat the tester has a round tip to give the worse case scenario i.e. a hit with the edge of a tip.

For very little you can create your own tester. Every club should have one. A ohm-meter (analog is better and cheaper for this) that registers ohms (not K ohms) and has a center scale preferably 10 or less, a broken wired Foil blade with tip, a working Foil bodycord and a Foil weight. Hook one side of the meter to the A line of the bodycord and clip to the lame'. Hook the other side to the broken blade and place the weight on the broken part of the blade. Touch the tip to the clip to zero out the meter. Run the blade (tip down) over the lame' looking for any readings near or over 5 ohms. These are the areas to work on.

If you find when you go past a seam the reading jumps up (especially on a stainless steel or copper lame') it usually indicates corrosion in the seam. This can be fixed by taking each side of the seam and pull back and forth breaking up the corrosion.

I hope this helped.

[fencingfrog]

wow, thank you all - that makes so much more sense now!
fencerbill - if that was you, i will be getting a new lame mine still "works", but yeah it does suck. its a couple yrs old and is pretty ratty.

[Belegur]

So, having established how lames eventually fail, what can be done in the event of such a failure (particularly referring to dead spots here)? I've heard copper wire mentioned in one of the armory threads in respect to restoring conductivity, but is this only a stop-gap solution?

A more general question might be how long a lame is expected to last. As an example, I bought an Uhlmann stainless lame earlier this year. Given that I use it about 2-3 times per week (excluding competitions), have it in a cupboard when not in use (and put it there right after I've returned from fencing), and hand wash it every second or third week, depending on how dirty it is, how long can I realistically expect it to be fully functional?

[remise]

Asking how long a lame is going to last is like asking how long a pair of shoes will last.

It depends on the fencer. It depends on the chemistry of your body sweat. It depends on how often you clean your lame. It depends on how your lame withstands the cleaning process. It depends on how you store your lame - right after use from bouting, and in between uses at tournaments and clubs.

Most experienced fencers have a lame that they use for club bouting and one they use strictly for tournaments. When the club lame dies, the tournament lame takes its place, and a new tournament lame is purchased.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

wow, thank you all - that makes so much more sense now!
fencerbill - if that was you, i will be getting a new lame mine still "works", but yeah it does suck. its a couple yrs old and is pretty ratty.

Buying a new Lame is never a question of

if

but only

when.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Belegur

So, having established how lames eventually fail, what can be done in the event of such a failure (particularly referring to dead spots here)? I've heard copper wire mentioned in one of the armory threads in respect to restoring conductivity, but is this only a stop-gap solution?

A more general question might be how long a lame is expected to last. As an example, I bought an Uhlmann stainless lame earlier this year. Given that I use it about 2-3 times per week (excluding competitions), have it in a cupboard when not in use (and put it there right after I've returned from fencing), and hand wash it every second or third week, depending on how dirty it is, how long can I realistically expect it to be fully functional?

Two years, four months, and eleven days.

Of course you can stretch this out by parrying and never getting hit.

One thing to worry about, particularly for Uhlmann/Allstar, is that the lining may shrink. The Lame may then develop a perpetual fold, starting from the bottom of the weapon arm side seam. If the fold is always in the same place this can lead to wire breakage at the apex of the fold.

You have to be pre-emptive in preventing this perpetual fold. (What is the phrase for repeating sounds in a sentence?)

So spread the Lame fabric out and take some stay stitches through the conductive fabric and lining to balance out the conductive fabric and prevent the fold.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

(What is the phrase for repeating sounds in a sentence?)

Alliteration.

-B

[Inquartata]

Also assonance and consonance.

[Robert Smith]

Originally Posted by Belegur

So, having established how lames eventually fail, what can be done in the event of such a failure (particularly referring to dead spots here)? I've heard copper wire mentioned in one of the armory threads in respect to restoring conductivity, but is this only a stop-gap solution?

Ah, how soon they forget. Try my sig. Which I'm going to have to do myself also; bought a new (cheap $75) lame around two months ago, washed it regularly, never stuffed it in the bag, did my best to stop others hitting it, sang it to sleep almost, and still the @#$%^& has a monster dead patch following the sweat line around the neck and right shoulder. Its predecessor was an Infinity that lasted most of a year before lame leprosy struck - a little short of infinity, but far better than two months.

So, any other copious perspirers out there? What's your solution? Are the ultralighhts any better / worse than regular stainless / Infinities?

[finnfence]

Originally Posted by Robert Smith

Ah, how soon they forget. Try my sig. Which I'm going to have to do myself also; bought a new (cheap $75) lame around two months ago, washed it regularly, never stuffed it in the bag, did my best to stop others hitting it, sang it to sleep almost, and still the @#$%^& has a monster dead patch following the sweat line around the neck and right shoulder. Its predecessor was an Infinity that lasted most of a year before lame leprosy struck - a little short of infinity, but far better than two months.

So, any other copious perspirers out there? What's your solution? Are the ultralighhts any better / worse than regular stainless / Infinities?

I gently but thoroughly rinse off my regular Allstar lame in the shower and hang it up to dry every single time I use it. Once I week I wash it with a tiny bit of Woolite type soap and then rinse it really well. The lames seem to last about a year that way with hard use.

This is also probably an overkill solution: when my husband became vegetarian, his sweat suddenly got a lot lighter and sweeter, more like a little kid's than an adult's. When he gave up all sugar and caffeine, the effect was doubled. No clue why, but it has a good effect on the longevity (and smell) of his gear.

[KD5MDK]

I know experienced armorers who say they've never seen an Estoc lame fail. That might be worth considering.

finnfence - It sounds like your husband gave up the essential elements of sabre fencing to me: meat, caffeine (alcohol was unmentioned, but involves sugars frequently).