Help, I'm writing a paper...about fencing and Hamlet

[Jamie Green]

Help, I'm writing a paper about fencing and Hamlet. I'm trying to prove that after the illeagle blow to Hamlet that he realized that the foil was 'unbaited and envenomed' and switched blades with Leartes on purpose. Is there such a move to swich blades and where would I find info on it?

FireTigeris@yahoo.com (Pleas E-Mail me with responce.)

[Spruce Branch]

Hamlet could do a bind ("enveloping" the blade with yours by twisting your wrist) and disarm Leartes, causing him to lose his blade. The duelling rules would require him to return a blade to Leartes.

[Matt_Bailey]

It would be very easy for both combatants to take a mutual grip of each others hilts and disarm, all rules aside.

[Moonitic]

Depending on who was staging the fight, they could easily have Hamlet & Laertes lose their weapons...rolling on the floor, jumping over things...etc...

In real life, for real fencers, I don't think that one person can switch weapons without someone seeing. After all, it wasn't an empty room that the men fought in.

Sorry, I tend to think like an actress when it comes to plays. It could easily be staged, but I don't think it happened much in real life.

[Jamie Green]

Spruce, (or anyone else) do you know where I could find a full description of this move?

Moonitic, would it matter if Hamlet switched weapons when everyone assumed they were the same?

[Christopher J Umbs]

Fortunately for you, the work has already been done...
http://www.engl.uvic.ca/faculty/mbho...wordfight.html

Chris

[Spruce Branch]

The envelopment or bind is described in William Gaugler's book "The Science of Fencing", I think it's called, and I think Aldo Nadi's book "On Fencing" has a description, too. You can find pictures of the move in one or the other, I believe.

The double grab is pretty common in fencing treatises; where the opponents come up together, and grab each others' weapons. The thing is, Leartes would have to risk losing his own weapon to attempt it, and in this case, that's unlikely. He'd more likely grab for his OWN blade, if Hamlet attempted to grab it away, using his other hand to assist in keeping a hold on it.

If you want a double disarm, you could always have the disarmed Leartes (after Hamlet disarms him with the envelopment) beat or parry Hamlet's blade with his hand (He'd be wearing leather gloves, and this happened often enough to be mentioned in Castle Edgerton's book on the history of fencing), and disarm Hamlet with his hands or by kicking the blade or by striking or kicking Hamlet in the hand or wrist. This would be considered fairly gauche by purists on duelling, and could even be taken as dishonorable (since most duels were stated to be with a weapon, and using fists and feet was seen more as "brawling").

Up to you.

[Lumberg]

Maybe Shakespeare came up with that idea to embellish the scene, add some flair, whatever. That's not to say that it's not doable. Just watch SpaceBalls, Dark Helmet was able to trick Lone Starr into giving him his schwartz during a duel.

[This message has been edited by Lumberg (edited 11-14-2000).]

[Matt_Bailey]

"The most important concept to understand in dealing with the 'sword switch' is how much the art of fencing has changed over the centuries. In England, in the Middle Ages, most duels would have been fought with primitive, older weapons - namely the mace, battle axe, and the longsword. These weapons were heavy and brutish, useful only for offense, with the task of defense falling primarily to the pounds of heavy armour each combatant would wear. Those who couldn't afford the very costly purchase of armour, namely the lower class, began to develop weapons and systems that could be used for both offense and defense . These folk began organizing themselves, and eventually 'fighting guilds' were established to teach the new found skills (Craig, 3-4)."

Wince


These guilds adopted the new Continental system of fighting with the sword and buckler (a small hand-held shield) as their own, and this system became established as the typical English style. Fighting with these instruments left most of the defense to the buckler, while the sword was used primarily for slashing maneuvers, the use of the point not yet fully understood

cringe

Whats there to understand? Pointy part goes in other man. LOL

[Christopher J Umbs]

Matt,

I don't write 'em, just cite 'em...

but yes, I agree.

Chris
(can we talk some more about the 'rough and untutored' medieval styles?)

[Moonitic]

Ok...let me first preface this by saying: it's a play. Fiction. How they did it could depend on who is staging the play. Especially someone who knows how to incorporate stage fencing into a show.

Now, let's actually look at the scene. The stage directions are as follows:

"Laertes wounds Hamlet; then, in the SCUFFLING, they change rapiers, & Hamlet wounds Laertes" (from the book "The Portable Shakespeare" which includes the entire play called Hamlet)

Ok, "in the scuffling"...it's not said how or why they change. Maybe in the heat of the moment, they grab whatever weapon they can get their hands on. They're angry, remember? They're out for blood. Also, it makes it clear it was rapiers that were used.

[Matt_Bailey]

Rough and untutored...right. In Ringeck you can find references to disengages, binds, sentiment du fer.

The annoying part is that people create fiction in the abscense of knowledge. For instance, I have no knowledge of ancient Atlantean at martial arts. I do not go about saying that Atlantean fighting was rough or untutored, or that they used tossed great balls of chi at each other, or anything like that. I dont' find it hard to say "Dammned if I know" what Atlantean martial arts were like.

[Dogstar]

I dont think theres any predication in historical or rules in moderen fencing that call for opponents to volintarily exchange weapons in the middle of a bout or duel.

As for the play..as Shakespear often does and as Moon correctly pointed out, the details of that scene can be left to the actor or director to perform as they wish as long as the results are accomplished......

Leartes wounds Hamlet; they scuffle , this pisses off Hamlet that he was wounded with the unbaited sword , Hamlet then could had punched Lairtes or charged and tackeled him causing him to drop it and Hamlet picks it up or he could pull it from his hand or play it any way you wish as long as the result is as Shakespear demands.

As for Hamlet knowing that the weapon was poisond.....I disagree because only after Lairtes tells Hamlet that it was, he then repetes it with IMO suprise " the point envenom'd too ! " he oviously knew it was sharp but not poisoned, then in further rage knowing Laites , the Queen and himself were going to die, he then finished off the King and they all die happily ever after.... ......D.

[Moonitic]

As a writer of fiction, I can assure you that not everyone who writes it has an lack of knowledge. What we don't know, we learn. Some do have that lack, but do you think Shakespeare did?

No need to get upset or draw this out any further than necessary, but maybe that portion of the play was of so very little importance that it was merely glossed over. Artistic license. If I wrote a play & people got this whacky about it, well...I'd be giggling my way to the bank. It's fiction, gang. Pure & simple. We don't know what Shakespeare was thinking. He's dead. We don't know what Hamlet & Laertes were thinking...they never existed. People LIKE them may have...but not them.

Jamie, go get your play director, ask him how he'd block that scene out & THEN write your paper based on your research.

[Christopher J Umbs]

Moonitic,

Have to disagree here. Will uses fencing to shed light on many of his character's personalities. In Romeo and Juliet, the servants are armed with the traditional English weapons - sword and buckler ("remember your swashing blow") while all the hot blooded young nobles are armed with that latest foreign fashion, the Italian rapier, while a member of the older generation calls for his longsword.

This was also a time when audiences would charge the stage with drawn weapons and attack the actors if they thought the swordplay was too bad.

In Hamlet, our hero realizes that something is wrong the second he notices he is bleeding. It then makes perfect sense to want to force a trade of weapons and, as Matt can tell you, there are many ways to do this safely - actual techniques, not just reckless grabbing.

Matt,
Having seen sites claiming to teach authentic Viking swordplay (neat trick since our earliest manual is I.33), I wouldn't be at all surprised to see somebody claiming Atlantean. What is soooo annoying is the fact that we have so many manuals readily available on-line where everything is spelled out nicely. Blame the Victorians, blame stage combat directors, blame modern fencers who just repeat myths that they were told by their teachers, but there really is no excuse for having such uninformed opinions now.

Chris

[FencerInUS]

Go rent the Kenneth Branagh version ov Hamlet. Its fairly recent remake. VERY well done. It's basicly the whole book. Mel Gibson's pales in comparison.
They have an interesting way of doing the switch. Be warned though, It is rather long, so used the bathroom first.

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F.I.US.
Parry, THEN riposte
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[Jamie Green]

Thank you all, The link helped alot and I'm nearly shure to get an "A" with three sources I used. I was hoping to find the division of opinion here rather then doing a boring topic like... "Is Hamlet Mad" or something. Anyone know of a Jacksonville FL fencing club, this looks more and more interesting.

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[FencerInUS]

So far the only one if found anywhere near you is in Gainsville Florida. Their web address: http://www.fencing.net/pages/clubs/ffa/

You should also check out http://www.USFencing.org/ That is the US Fencing Organization. They will have a better listing (hopefully) and since you probably know where you live and whats closer to you better than I do, you should have an easier time finding a club. By the way, now that i have florida on the line, tell them to hurry up and give us a president already. Have fun and good luck finding a club near you.

------------------
F.I.US.
Parry, THEN riposte
--)--------