New cheating method in saber?

[edew]

I was told of a recent method for cheating in saber. Take a Leon Paul or Negrini type body cord where it's easy to access the prongs on the reel end of the body cord. Apparently, one can just use a paper clip and short out two (or maybe all three) of the prongs and during double touches, the opponent's light would not light up.

I don't understand how the process would work, so perhaps some tip-top armorer can elaborate on how it might work. Also, will referees be made aware of this cheat and look out for the possibility of cheating?

It doesn't work well with Uhlmann style body cords because it's hard to access the internals. On the other hand, if one does, it's virtually impossible to determine without opening the socket up completely.

So, is this cheating method true? Can it be done? Has it been done? Is there a quick and dirty way to test for this cheat?

[AndrewH]

Haven't heard of it personally. I would imagine, though, that it would be pretty obvious when the fencers test to start the match, tap each other's masks and only one light goes off. Ref checks each individually, both lights work, together again and only one light comes on. Replace body cord, repeat.

[edew]

Apparently, it occurs during tight simultaneous actions. One could always let the other hit first during testing, let the machine reset and then test to avoid manifesting the cheat.

[oso97]

I haven't heard of this method, but, I'm going to do some tests tonight to see if its possible. If so, we need to set the armory folks to work figuring out a "quick and dirty" method of testing for it.

And unless one was looking specifically for it, I don't think the idea posted by AndrewH would work, because how many times have we seen where the fencers can't quite get it to work together and just test individually?

[mrbiggs]

As I see it, you're connecting the B C, and A lines. This is equivalent to touching the guard to the lame.

So on older machines (if I remember my sabre correctly), it prevents touches from being registered, but it won't on new machines.

Plus, it will make the little orange light come on.

[CvilleFencer]

Apparently, it occurs during tight simultaneous actions. One could always let the other hit first during testing, let the machine reset and then test to avoid manifesting the cheat.

Thats why you make sure as a ref they both hit as the same time. Also, on grounded strips, its also a good idea to make sure both fencers have their feet flat on the ground, at least for foil!

[keith]

Apparently, it occurs during tight simultaneous actions. One could always let the other hit first during testing, let the machine reset and then test to avoid manifesting the cheat.

...so is it gaming the whip around timing?


(ignorant if such a thing still exists in sabre boxes)

edit well it does;

5. If the contact between the blade and the opponent’s target
takes place ‘through the blade’, the apparatus:
— will register the touch between 0 and 4 ms (+ 1 ms);
— will prevent the touch being registered between 4 and 15 ms (+ 5
ms), on condition that the contact between the two blades is not
interrupted more than a maximum of 10 times in the interval.

[oiuyt]

I'd be surprised if this works.

The whipover protection kicks in for hits more than 4ms, but less than 15ms, after a blade contact. This should result in 0ms difference, so, correctly implemented, that shouldn't come into play.

Meanwhile you've shorted your blade to your lamé, which means any blade contact should trigger a light for your opponent (just like having your cuff touching the uninsulated pommel.

Yeah, not something I'm worrying much about.

I also fail to see how the simul-ness of the action would affect one's opponent's light from firing in the described situation.

-B

[keith]

Meanwhile you've shorted your blade to your lamé, which means any blade contact should trigger a light for your opponent (just like having your cuff touching the uninsulated pommel.

which also puts the yellow 'grounding' light on. So unless shorting every thing stops that from happening as well.....

[epeemike81]

So, is this cheating method true? Can it be done? Has it been done? Is there a quick and dirty way to test for this cheat?

no, no, N/A.

B and C are always grounded in a sabre circuit, so the only real effect is grounding A (the lame clip) to B and C (the weapon). As others have noted, this is akin to placing your bell against your lame, which will simply make your weapon target. very ineffective way to cheat...

-m

[Dee EffEll]

Off the current subject, but most epeeists know the "booger trick:" When tied at 4-4, 9-9, or 14-14 (or even 44-44) the game is to take your mask off to wipe the sweat, then turn your back while walking to the line. Carefully fish some nasal debris, and serrupticiously deposit it on the scoring buttton. Now make a good action, being sure to finish in safe distance, only hitting the opponent's bellguard. It will in fact go off, as your button is effectively insulated from the grounded bell. Voila! Winner! (The variant of using tape goo from the copper strips is lost now with the hard aluminum strips.)

I have discovered a follow on: when fencing at a tournament, be sure to keep a "throw down" weapon or two in your bag, tuned to 740 grams or with a bad shim test. Mark them carefully. When an unprepared fencer shows up to fence you with only one weapon, and his fails, offer him your "throw down." See if you can get him/her to ask for your second when the first gets him a yellow card. Then bask in the glow of a clever red card score!

NB: tongue is firmly wedged in my cheek right now....

[AndrewH]

Thats why you make sure as a ref they both hit as the same time. Also, on grounded strips, its also a good idea to make sure both fencers have their feet flat on the ground, at least for foil!

Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Splice a wire into your C line, then run it through your knickers and socks, then connect to a thumbtack inside your shoe that touches the strip?

[oiuyt]

Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Splice a wire into your C line, then run it through your knickers and socks, then connect to a thumbtack inside your shoe that touches the strip?

Little hint: Test your setup before the competition. A teammate of mine tried this at an intramural varsity vs JV scrimmage (with the foil wrap from a piece of gum as the contact surface under the foot). First touch fo the bout he came forward chest forward (in sabre) with a goofy grin on his face. The look of shock on his face when the freshman's swipe actually put on a light was priceless.

-B

[CvilleFencer]

Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Splice a wire into your C line, then run it through your knickers and socks, then connect to a thumbtack inside your shoe that touches the strip?

Yeah, pretty much. A tack would be fairly unreliable unless you solder the wire to it. A screw cut down to the right length with a couple of nuts crimping the wire, all under the insole of the shoe would be a bit more reliable and less likely to stab you in the foot. Also for the line connection, an alligator clip that can be pulled loose if you have to pull out the BC is also a better way to go I would think. A whole lot of work to cheat and pretty obvious (no "wow, how did that gunk get on the end of my tip?" kind of excuse will save you there) if someone goes looking, but I heard from a very experienced armorer that someone had once went through the effort.

Dee Effell, I had never actually heard of the "booger trick" before. I would wonder how effective it would be. Seems sort of hit or miss (no pun intended), but I would not be surprised to hear it had been tried. I am more familiar with the clear finger nail polish cheat, where you only coat half of your tip before hand and just make sure you test as whatever angle the nail polish is not covering at the start of the bout, but pop the bell at the "correct" angle to signal the light when you need it.

Somewhat related side question. For an event of clear and manifest cheating (suck as with the foil "grounded lame" type setup I mention above or something else that clearly had forethought of cheating and no even vaguely plausible potential excuse, has the USFA ever convened a disciplinary committee to sanction the guilty party above and beyond the black card the person would have received when they were first caught? I know it can happen, I just don't know if it ever has. Seems to me the sort of thing where someone who was caught doing it should get a nice long break from competitive fencing...

[AndrewH]

(with the foil wrap from a piece of gum as the contact surface under the foot)

Ah, see, he should have been using the 5 ohm gum wrapper...