What's going wrong with Women's Foil?

[Barry Paul]

I took this thread from one started by Paul Sibert on fencing forum because i thought it was of interest to every one. My input follows.

At the Team event in Havanna of the 32 matches from the L16, 28 of them failed to make it to 45 hits. Only 5 of them got into the 40s.

In the Men's foil of the 16 matches, only 2 of them failed to make it to 45.

The problem is that this does not suprise me. The most boring of the finals at the Cadet Worlds was the WF.

So why is WF becoming so boring?

[Barry Paul]

I wonder if part of the problem is the relative valid hit size ratio to the rest of non valid target. Coupled with the fact that the mask bib is a constant maximum size whatever the size of the fencers head (ie the bib is the same size for extra small as extra large.)

So cetain slim short fencers almost hide behind their bibs and it makes it even harder to hit the valid target. Does this encourage ducking and constant non valid lights?

Is the saviour of womens fencers to be the new proposal at the next congress of making part of the bib conductive?

[KD5MDK]

If that were the case, why aren't the top male foil fencers short little guys who could do the same?

[peet]

I don't think it's the bib.
-p

[fencerbill]

Several years ago my impression of Foil was that the referees were letting the fencers hide their blade as they advanced until they got too close to defend against/the defenders were running out of strip. There was supposed to be emphasis on the referees to crack down on this. Has this emphasis resulted in penalizing the attacking fencer to the point that more sparring is needed to get an offensive advantage. Now they have to spend more time to get enough advantage to carry through an attack that is likely to be successful.

The female fencers have to be more careful in getting their opponent into their kill zone without exposing themselves to the opponent's kill zone.

This may be less for male Foilists who have more explosiveness and are able to have less exposure to their opponent's kill zone while closing to where their offense will be effective.

Another way to describe the same thing is that the male fencers can go forward faster than their opponents can go backwards while the female fencers can go backwards faster than their opponents can close.

[FoilyDeath]

Is there the same relationship on Epee? Although it might not be as noticeable due to the fact that all epee matches take ages, I wouldn't be too surprised.
Its not the bib. Really.

[formerfencer]

So why is WF becoming so boring?

Simple: We fear counterattacks.

It wasn't just the team events... if you look at the table for the individual wf in Havana, only 1 bout from the top 8 went to 15. The game has become so cautious -- lots of second-intention and attacks-in-prep -- that it just doesn't move like it used to. Hopefully, womens foil will adapt like mens foil did... it just seems to be taking longer.

[misha]

looks at my comments about WF at St.Petersburg GP earlier this year:

Grand-Prix "Fleuret de St.Petersbourg"

less action than epee...

.

[telkanuru]

This thread operates under the faulty assumption that WF was interesting in the first place.

[SJB]

Not only is Women's Foil boring to watch but ugly as well.

I will gladly referee anything but Women's Foil. It depresses me, not to mention endlessly calling out "Attack no, Parry-Riposte no, remese no, remese of the riposte no ..." until someone hits the target.

It used to be that the mark of a good Women's Foilist was simple. She knew how to put the point on the f**king target.

Now, with the new timings both effectively eliminating whips to the shoulder as well as simple *direct* hits to the chest (due to both the chip and the chest plate working against you) it's made Women's Foil a ghost of it's former self.

Really, there is little to do with body size, the bib, or anything else as there is to do with the new timings, chest plates, and bad technique.

[seak]

As a women's foil fencer I don't think it's the bib or the chest protector, quite honestly most women don't hit hard enough for it to be a major factor. The main thing is (as someone pointed out earlier) we fear counterattacks. It has become very difficult to hit in women's foil, due to lack of reach and very small target, hidden behind the arm. It's just easier to hit on the defensive then on your offensive action, hence women's foil now rewards defensive fencers, and everyone has trended that way.

Personally I hate it, and am seriously considering switching to sabre full time. Dangit but I like to attack

[Monash_Armourer]

Women foilists think too much.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Personally I hate it, and am seriously considering switching to sabre full time. Dangit but I like to attack

And we'll be happy to have you. Welcome aboard, matey! (insert pirate smiley here)

[noodle]

women's foil was less aggressive than men's foil before the timings change to start.

add that in with a required chest protector, and you have a game that you have to be very careful when fencing. there is much more incentive to fence it slow and calculating like epee in the levels where everyone is good.

or at least, thats what it seems like to me

[edew]

I dunno, I think there's room for some inventive tactics and techniques that can exploit the overly careful play that WF fencers use. I think one might see a renaissance in WF sometime soon after the 2008 Olympics. Maybe the 2008 Olympics might produce a female foilist version of Fabio Dal Zotto who might show everyone the way to new innovative actions.

One of the things I really love about fencing is the constant evolution of tactics and techniques. Every problem demands a solution and every solution creates a problem (for the opponent). It's a never-ending quest to devise that solution, and a solution to that solution.

[Epee Scherma]

Well maybe women shouldn't fence at all.

I mean their chest protectors, passive fighting, the new timings, and irrational counterattack fears give me reason to think that women shouldn't do sports at all.
!!!JUST KIDDING!!!

Actually I just wanted to say that I enjoy watching women's foil. I like the calculating defensive meticulousness of it all. I would recommend taking a step back and appreciating it for what it is. If your idea of what is "right" is more fighting actions I suggest reevaluation.

[introspective]

No pizzaz. I noticed the same thing in 2000, it was pretty blah. What worked last time was the energy that was generated in order to get behind the women's foil team that went to the Olympics. Even old women like myself dusted off their gear just to get in there and scramble things up a bit.
But, the feedback on that was that by the next olympics, the Feds threw the book at all the fencing that was taking up so much time and said they didn't want WF included.

Thereafter - I loved fencing when it sizzled, but not in Paris, where it Fizzled.

[epeemike81]

Well maybe women shouldn't fence at all.

I mean their chest protectors, passive fighting, the new timings, and irrational counterattack fears give me reason to think that women shouldn't do sports at all.
!!!JUST KIDDING!!!

Actually I just wanted to say that I enjoy watching women's foil. I like the calculating defensive meticulousness of it all. I would recommend taking a step back and appreciating it for what it is. If your idea of what is "right" is more fighting actions I suggest reevaluation.

leave it to a true epeeist...

-m

[KD5MDK]

Actually I just wanted to say that I enjoy watching women's foil. I like the calculating defensive meticulousness of it all. I would recommend taking a step back and appreciating it for what it is. If your idea of what is "right" is more fighting actions I suggest reevaluation.

I think what is right is more on-target hits.

No pizzaz. I noticed the same thing in 2000, it was pretty blah. What worked last time was the energy that was generated in order to get behind the women's foil team that went to the Olympics. Even old women like myself dusted off their gear just to get in there and scramble things up a bit.
But, the feedback on that was that by the next olympics, the Feds threw the book at all the fencing that was taking up so much time and said they didn't want WF included.

Thereafter - I loved fencing when it sizzled, but not in Paris, where it Fizzled.

I'm a trifle confused about what you're referencing here. Who are the Feds and when did fencing take up too much time?

[fatfencer]

They don't train to be explosive and fast. I watched Thompson and Cross in the Tucson final and I got up and left.

It was wretched.

Women's foil is very defensive oriented. It looks as if their whole fencing is based on parry riposte and what happens afterwards in tactics.

Men start with the attack.

These are sweeping generalizations but there is truth in them methinks.

They seem to fear each others parry riposte too much.

Womens Saber starts with an attack!! From there it progresses....

Women's foil should borrw heavily from this IMHO.

FF