What's going wrong with Women's Foil?

[fatfencer]

[QUOTE=Boo Boo;569317]*giggle*

In all seriousness, I think that CrazyCanuck has some very valid and interesting points...

If you have seen the top women in the world fence, you will know that they don't lack aggression, speed and explosiveness. Maybe they don't have those attributes to the same extent as the top men in the world, but that isn't possible (taking into account testosterone levels and muscle strength/power etc).

I saw Vezzali fence Mohamed and it was boring drivel... long gone are the explosive long lunges, even at the highest levels it's become a pseudo epee pokefest.

On the British Forum I said that I believe that MF and WF have "adapted differently" because of the physiological differences between men and women: basically men and women are both built differently (and the female chest protector WILL play a part) and tend to think differently. WF may be worse/"more boring" to watch, but it is not because Women Foilists are crap... it is because how women have adjusted their game to fence other women under the new timings (taking advantage of their own physiological & psychological strengths and exploiting their opponent's physiological & psychological weaknesses).

I just think it's laziness coupled with a defeatist, shortsighted, take the shortcut approach to winning in the now rather than investing in becoming better fencers in the long term. But again, I see this in both womens AND mens foil. It's ****ty fencing.

Yes we are "individuals", but - through nature, nurture or (more likely) a combination of the both - individual women tend to have a lot mor ein common with other women than with men...

True...amazing what going to the bathroom together does for bonding....hey Inq.. can we go to the bathroom together too?


Yes it is ugly to watch and, personally, I don't enjoy fencing it at the moment. But it isn't the fault of the WF, it is the fault of Mr Roch...

I hate to say it as I'm not in favor of the new timings either... but I've somewhat adapted after 2 years.... its time to adapt and not come to a conclusion and not act upon it.....

I love the name 'Booboo' btw

Boo

[Boo Boo]

I saw Vezzali fence Mohamed and it was boring drivel... long gone are the explosive long lunges, even at the highest levels it's become a pseudo epee pokefest.

Vezzali has always been a "spolier" (new timings and old timings). I have never particularly likes her style, but for over a decade it was amazingly effective - she was winning just about EVERYTHING. So even though it isn't a pretty style, you have to admire her fantastic timing and distance. Interestingly Vezzali is not quite the winning machine that she was pre-Athens: that may have quite a lot to do with having a baby, but it also may be because more women are fencing a lot like her (more caution, more of a spoiler) - so, even at the top level, people are less suckered into attacking her at the wrong timing and distance.

Mohamed has also been a pretty "cautious" (effectoive) fencer.

Long explosive lunges have been there, with other top fencers, under old timings.

I just think it's laziness coupled with a defeatist, shortsighted, take the shortcut approach to winning in the now rather than investing in becoming better fencers in the long term. But again, I see this in both womens AND mens foil. It's ****ty fencing.

Have you any idea how the top women train in countries like Italy, Germany, Russia, China and Japan? They haven't just be sitting on their a*ses since the new timings were introduced... .

They have been training to make the timings work for them: that doesn't mean "make their fencing pretty to watch" it means "winning at the highest level". To many that has meant a more Vezzali-esque approach: very cautious and letting your opponent make the timing/distance mistake and taking advantage of it.

[B]True...amazing what going to the bathroom together does for bonding....hey Inq.. can we go to the bathroom together too?

That is not what I meant... To a certain extent our phsyical gender will dictate our attributes as a fencer: certainly strength, hormones (testosterone at the least) and size have a very strong influence. As far as nurture goes, from birth girls are brought up differently from boys (both intentionally and sub-conciously).

Watching my young niece and nephew growing up is very telling - I would guess that they are pretty typical of many (but not all) boys and girls. Megan is a girly girl - into dolls, colouring, pretty clothes. She is encouraged to be lady-like and her parents do nothing to discourage her screamishness and occasional sillyness. Megan is sensitive and considerate of others. Sam is really "rough and tumble". He is loud, boisterous, very self-centred and all "me! me! me!". His parents allow this "boyish" behaviour. Megan is almost 9 and Sam is 6. After years of instilling gender stereo-types (and reinforced by Megan spending time with similar girly girls and Sam spending time with similar boisterous boys), anyone want to guess who is likely to be better at competitive sports?

I hate to say it as I'm not in favor of the new timings either... but I've somewhat adapted after 2 years.... its time to adapt and not come to a conclusion and not act upon it.....

Women HAVE adapted, they just have adapted to suit their own physiological/psychological attributes (smaller, lower-centre of gravity, speed of "twisting and turning", more defensive mindset, chest-protectors, less wrist strength etc).

Fencing style changes a lot over time. If you looked at foil fencing in the 1960s (ok, I wasn't born then), then compare it with 1980s fencing, fencing in the later 1990s and then again to new-timings fencing... you will see how much foil fencing has adapted in the past 40 years. I am sure that WF will continue to adapt - one way or another.

Talking about why WF is the way it is, is interesting/useful for WF and for people who coach them. I guess that innovative and progressive equipment designers/manufacturers/suppliers, like Barry, also like to think about these things.

Boo

[C.I.C.]

I just think it's laziness coupled with a defeatist, shortsighted, take the shortcut approach to winning in the now rather than investing in becoming better fencers in the long term.

So the fencer who takes "the shortcut to winning" would beat the "long term" better fencer "in the now"?

What about in the later? Would the "long term" better fencer beat the "shortcut" fencer then? If they would then, where's the problem?

If they wouldn't, then they're clearly NOT the "better" fencer, and it's NOT a "shortcut" that's beating them, but instead it's a technique, a strategy, a skill.

p.s. Anyone remember Muhammad Ali's "roper-doper"? Not pretty, but it worked.

[Barry Paul]

If its not the bib maybe it is the new timing preventing indirect riposte. Especially when the target is an inviting back, I delighted in taking a low held cart parry followed by a disengage on to the back, but with these new timings it is difficult to hit against an immediate remise.

[Rick Shellhouse]

No - it was well before that. The first national championships demo in Women's sabre was 1998, and women's epee had had a national championships for quite a few years before that--was it Vinnie Bradford in 1982, or was it before that?

You are correct...it was 81..sorry I was thinking U-19 ...


R

[Superscribe]

uhh, well my tactic is hard beats and quick ripostes to catch them off guard, because they do tend to contort their bodies and block shots with the their .... "protectors" Typically though, quick and strong actions are enough to expose something i can hit.

I don't understand why there's such a fear of the counter attack in women. This defensive style isn't a trump all. WHen a top level male foilist fences a female foilist, the male foilist wins, and their styles don't really change. SO maybe for a woman to beat other women, she just needs to fence more like a male, and pack on the weight.

sorry i didn't read everything i dunno if this was alrady covered.

[academe]

SO maybe for a woman to beat other women, she just needs to fence more like a male, and pack on the weight.

sorry i didn't read everything i dunno if this was alrady covered.

Yeah, fatfencer has that covered...

[Superscribe]

oh right... i tend not to dig through the useless drivel and tactless, excess vocabulary of his hamhanded arguments.

Is he still making stereotypes, trying to defend them, and pissing people off?

[fatfencer]

Yeah, fatfencer has that covered...

Yes the gut of fatfencer is omnipresent It covers all..

I'm teaming up with the Goodyear Blimp to showcase the new Steel Belted Radial Lame'!!!

FF

PS: Someone mentioned women using their 'protectors' to parry; a really bright, talented hot female fencer did this to me several times over a week of fencing. It was both frustrating and hot at the same time. I think i started a thread about this once called 'boob parry'. She was, is, a very beautiful woman.

[Inquartata]

First of all, I wish that you would quit putting your answers in the same quote block as the passages you are answering. Your answers do not appear in subsequent reply fields; I have to cut and paste your answers into my reply page. Eg, when I hit the "reply with quote" button on your post, all that appeared was your very last sentence.

Just type in the "quote" HTML tags, already!

But then again, we might also speculate that they fear each others counter attack that they are merely WAITING for someone to do something that they can exploit.

Yeah, that's a point.

At the very least, however, we cannot dismiss the alternate possibility out of hand, as you have done. There is no evidence to support either position to the exclusion of the other.

You presume they are thinking at all: I don't call fear and worrying thinking tactically, necessarily.

Yes, I do, because human beings very seldom stop thinking altogether.

Moreover, you are still asking us to accept "fear and worry" as the pertinent state of affairs in the mind of another. I'll ask again: How can you possibly know this?

Yes, it is actually what she said: men are more aggressive and adventurous whist women are more cerebral and sedentary.

No need to guess, let's look back:

It has been surmised that a male's thought process is very linear. Starting with the problem and following it to its conclusion. Women on the other hand think in a pattern that is more like a spider’s web, in all directions at the same time. Some scientist surmise that this was a trait carried on from the cave men. Since women needed to stay and look after the young they needed to be alert and see everything in their surroundings. Meanwhile the males would be out tracking and hunting or looking for food for their family (linear thought). There are problems to each way of thinking and though this theory may explain much there are exceptions. Women would have a greater problem following a problem to its logical conclusion because they lack focus. Men on the other hand may have a problem seeing the many facets of an issue and have problem identifying what is truly wrong.
This is not to say that modern women can not learn the process of linear thought or vise versa for men, this is just saying that each member is predisposed to a certain way of thinking.

Where is there anything about women thinking more in there?

Her original post said

men tend to be more explorers and aggressors while women tend to be more cerebral and sedentary.

Didn't say anything about "thinking more" that I can see.

Main Entry: ce·re·bral
Pronunciation: s&-'rE-br&l, 'ser-&-, 'se-r&-
Function: adjective
Etymology: French cérébral, from Latin cerebrum brain; akin to Old High German hirni brain, Greek kara head, keras horn, Sanskrit siras head -- more at HORN
1 a : of or relating to the brain or the intellect b : of, relating to, affecting, or being the cerebrum
2 a : appealing to intellectual appreciation <cerebral drama> b : primarily intellectual in nature <a cerebral society>

So "more of or relating to the brain or the intellect/cerebrum/intellectual appreciation". Does that look quite synonymous with "thinking more" to you?

Then she ended with

As far as mental processes go and what is happening for a woman vrs men, all I have to say is, take a man shopping and you will understand the difference in the mental process.

Process, that is to say, a "series of actions or operations conducing to an end". "Different" processes, not quantitatively greater or lesser ones.

Did you say that you were an English major once?

these classes aren't split along gender lines are they? Silly to think so.

Assertion without evidence. I challenge the statement. You have no evidence to demonstrate that there are not or cannot be such splits along gender lines...

You may be correct, but absent compelling data supporting the statement it's no more than an opinion, which, as is well known, resemble a certain anatomical feature in both commonality of possession and aroma.

I can observe and share my observations

Except that we have no details of your observations. What indicators are you using to demonstrate "fear" as opposed to cogitation?

Since none of the rest of us seem to be seeing these, or interpreting them as you do, maybe they aren't as reliable as you think?

Women foilists move slower because they fear the counter attack and haven't spent the time dialing their points in.

Again, nothing but assertion. Starting to resemble the argumentum ad nauseam, don't you think? Averring it 18 more times isn't going to make it any more convincing...

...hey Inq.. can we go to the bathroom together too?

Uh, sure...though it will probably not be good for your, ah, self-esteem.