Gaza in chaos....again

[pigeonmeister]

[QUOTE]

If you seek to travel there, you must declare you are not a Jew (I knew people working in oil companies who told me about this)

U.S. has Jewish military that have been stationed in Saudi Arabia. Of course, all of those are non-Israeli Jewish people. I would not be surprised if they are extremely strict against Israeli Jews entering the country. I believe that there are some jewish foreigners working in the oil industry. The official tourism website stated that Jews were banned from entering the country; however, it was not enforced in practice. On March 1 2005, the Government removed this statement from the site replacing it with a statement regretting "any inconvenience this may have caused."

None of this hides the poisonous anti-semitism endemic in Saudi society. But its worth pointing out the America's best Arab friends are even less welcoming to Hindus. Islamic law considers Hindus to be polytheists; the law was used as a justification for greater discrimination in calculating accidental death or injury compensation. According to the country's Hanbali interpretation of Shari'a, once fault is determined by a court, a Muslim male receives 100 percent of the amount of compensation determined, a male Jew or Christian received 50 percent, and all others (including Hindus) received 1/16 of the amount a male Muslim receives.

In accordance with the religious establishment's interpretation of Shari'a, women were prohibited from marrying non-Muslims, but men were permitted to marry Christians and Jews, as well as Muslims- but not I believe any other religion.

[jeff]

I was told "no Jewish employees allowed by Saudi" by people working for oil companies - not Israeli, but any nationality. Such a declaration as I described was required in S.A. government forms as part of the visa application. It's 20 years ago and policies may have changed. I would hope that the US govt would tell Saudi government "No deal" if asked to exclude servicemen based on their religion. The tourism website seems to disagree with their recent advertising in the US, which said such restrictions would soon be lifted. None of this is by way of contradiction - we are seeing different snapshots taken at different times. That an apartheid law was not rigorously enforced is not a moral exculpation.

Nor do I dispute your comments with regard to their views of Hindus. I take no comfort at all that they hate Hindus more than Jews or Christians (who I must again mention are not permitted to open a church, let alone proselytize. Muslims are permitted both rights in the West, and Saudis have refused reciprocity). The fine details of how much compensation is given based on a religion, or who is allowed to marry whom, are of course direct evidence of an apartheid system. Nothing could be clearer.

The point isn't that it's evil to hate members of one religious or ethnic group in particular, but that it's evil to hate people because they're members of any religion or ethnic group, period. Such bigotry is just as wrong if held against Jews, Christains, Bahai, Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, and the rare atheist who wanders into the room and wonders what the fuss is about. And let's please not forget sexism, practiced in much of Islam in such a virulent form as to treat females as subhuman. Treating 50% of our species like dirt counts, to say the least.

So, when we mark out examples of religious and ethnic hatred - "poisonous" as you say - it is more just to criticise more stringently societies where racial and religious hatred are so deeply engrained in culture and in law. Bigotry is everywhere, including in both of our countries and in Israel as well, but it is a moral failing, and IMO a sign of bigotry to single out countries like Israel when other countries are far more racist. Spreading falsehoods, like the ones by Teme, is at best carelessness, at worst, complicity.

[Inquartata]

I was told "no Jewish employees allowed by Saudi" by people working for oil companies - not Israeli, but any nationality. Such a declaration as I described was required in S.A. government forms as part of the visa application. It's 20 years ago and policies may have changed. I would hope that the US govt would tell Saudi government "No deal" if asked to exclude servicemen based on their religion.

Even if one is not Jewish one may have problems even visiting some Muslim countries. From the State Department website:

"Some Arab countries will not allow travelers to enter if their passports show any evidence of previous or expected travel to Israel. Other Arab countries apply the ban inconsistently, sometimes refusing and at other times allowing entry when a passport shows evidence of travel to Israel."

[jeff]

You're right - I forgot that. People who have done Middle East itineraries (something I have very little interest in doing until and unless things ever get calm and placid there!) have told me that there itineraries had to be planned to go to Israel last, because their neighbors could refuse entry if they saw signs of having been there.

[introspective]

Considering that all of the Palestinian militants are technically "civilians", I scarcely think that a comparison is relevant...

That would mean they have no money to create an army. Does anyone realize that the first thing that a country does beyond scrape out their boundaries, is to create a military? That is what Israel did with our assistance. I think we should assist all countries equally. And if one country becomes too militaristic, we should take a good look at things. I still maintain that in spite of any previous actions taken by the Palistinians, they deserve a chance to make a country for themselves. I refuse to keep going back to Prehistory to determine the validity of a state.

Jeff, what I am saying is: "You do not see the forest for the tree" In other words, because you are steadily focused on one tree; you are not seeing the forest.

But lets look at our quote above: wherein the person above states that the Palistinians are all civilians [and that is somehow 'bad']. In reading his comment one can be led to believe that somehow this is not a good thing. The point is that both sides have been at war for far too long and they need to figure out a way to solve their differences, without including the rest of the globe. I still think the only reason Gaza has become a battleground is because of the proximity to the sea, and no country wants to be landlocked - its a strategic nightmare because of the possibilities of having a Navy.
The whole entire issue of immigration has only recently become an issue because of the level of suspicion one has towards foreign travellers. Something that we really didn't have before to any degree.

[jeff]

After full deliberation giving the above all the weight it demands:

That would mean they have no money to create an army.

Actually, they do have an army. At least 2 or 3 of them. And have received plenty of money to build them.

Does anyone realize that the first thing that a country does beyond scrape out their boundaries, is to create a military? That is what Israel did with our assistance.

There are many instances where the creation of an army preceded creation of the nation: Israel and Palestine being obvious, and the US as well...

I think we should assist all countries equally.

I don't. Are all countries friends? Does aiding all countries help US or global interests? Should we help N. Korea to prepare to invade S. Korea as much as we help S. Korea be able to fight off an invasion?

And if one country becomes too militaristic, we should take a good look at things.

And just what would we do then besides having a "good look" and saying "Oh, my!"

I still maintain that in spite of any previous actions taken by the Palistinians, they deserve a chance to make a country for themselves. I refuse to keep going back to Prehistory to determine the validity of a state.

Pretty much everyone is agreed to a 2-state solution in which Palestinians get a state. The only exceptions are hardliners like Hamas (and Iran, and others) that want a 1-state solution in which Israel has been eliminated.

Jeff, what I am saying is: "You do not see the forest for the tree" In other words, because you are steadily focused on one tree; you are not seeing the forest.

I think I've got a good view of both, but thank you for your concern.

But lets look at our quote above: wherein the person above states that the Palistinians are all civilians [and that is somehow 'bad'].

Nobody has said being civilians is bad. What people of various positions in the discussion have said amounts to "killing civilians is bad", and "pretending to be civilian when actually military is bad". Two entirely different things from what you misunderstood. Get a little closer to the trees and you might understand the forest a little better.

In reading his comment one can be led to believe that somehow this is not a good thing.

Only if one doesn't understand his comment.

The point is that both sides have been at war for far too long and they need to figure out a way to solve their differences, without including the rest of the globe.

You think?

I still think the only reason Gaza has become a battleground is because of the proximity to the sea, and no country wants to be landlocked

Okay, we'll move it.

- its a strategic nightmare because of the possibilities of having a Navy.

As soon as they finish not having an army, they can start not-having a navy. okay?

The whole entire issue of immigration has only recently become an issue because of the level of suspicion one has towards foreign travellers. Something that we really didn't have before to any degree.

No, never happened before at all...

[introspective]

I am not sure why looting is 'ironic' if you are thinking that the people are nobel and they wouldn't think of looting etc. Looting is never right; however, in every riot in the United States, from Harlem to Berkley, there has been looting, Chicago had a mixed looting crowd, so it's irrespective of race or religion.

It sort of goes with the riot territory and people have come to expect it. In fact, in New York where we had massive riots in the late 60's the then Mayor Lindsey, simply shrugged it off and said to let it go. He realized there were underlying issues that had to be resolved. Once he got that figured out, it all stopped and people came together again.

It's just an off-on-off-on thing with people. We're still a bit........

[jeff]

Was that post intended for a different thread?

[introspective]

The debate rages. I for one am trying very hard to be more open minded and think about the situation from a different standpoint, instead of the simple standpoint that was taught to me in school. I feel we should try to look at things from all sides before we leap into making any judgements about who is 'right' and who is 'wrong'. I don't think anyone is really correct about anything here, and the incorrectness of it all has virtuallly found its way into the world, where everyone is now a part of this larger problem. The solution to it, is finding a solution, not sitting around screaming that so and so the sobbing so and so's have to do something or another.

The problems facing that part of the world are seemingly endless, but it points to a larger problem, and that is the push and pull of globalism. That there tends to be two basic schools of thought: one is that all of the populations of the world should endeavor to stay in their countries of origin. The other is that all of the people of the world should endeavor to live whereever they want to. With that in mind, there are two schools of thought that support these theories: one is : all of the people should be encouraged to stay in their countries of origin, while the other theory suggests that we should discourage this and encourge movement around the world so that all of us have no choice but to find a way to get along.

I personally subscribe to the natural order of things; and would prefer that people have the opportunity to emmigrate abroad as the individual sees fit. The only drawback to this is that individuals run into adjustment difficulties and need support. And that is the reason people don't get along very well. It is also historically true that zealot groups tend to become mainstreamed given time in a community.

[Phaeton]

You're right - I forgot that. People who have done Middle East itineraries (something I have very little interest in doing until and unless things ever get calm and placid there!) have told me that there itineraries had to be planned to go to Israel last, because their neighbors could refuse entry if they saw signs of having been there.

And if you're traveling around the arab world and then decide to go to Israel you can get some good ol' security hassles. I know at some point Israel would stamp on a slip of paper outside of the passport to be put in, although I'm not sure if this is has kept up to current times.

[introspective]

Stormy weather. I hate to continue on this because it sounds so dorky....but I really think we're seeing, like, tremendous global upheaval that I don't think is going to go away real soon. I just re-read the Rishho Ankoko Ron and here's a sample [it's 26 pages long at least - but this is just a little paragraph]

ON ESTABLISHING THE CORRECT TEACHINGbut binding and enslaving, killing and injuring, anger and contention. People will slander each other or fawn upon one another, and the laws will be twisted until even the innocent are made to suffer. Pestilence will become rampant, comets will appear again and again, two suns will come forth side by side, and eclipses will occur with unaccustomed frequency. Black arcs and white arcs will span the sky as harbingers of ill fortune, stars will fall, the earth will shake, and noises will issue from the wells. Torrential rains and violent winds will come out of season, famine will constantly occur, and grains and fruits will not ripen. Marauders from many other regions will invade and plunder the nation, the people will suffer all manner of pain and affliction, and no place will exist where one may live in safety.’ ”

The Great Collection Sutra says: “When the teachings of the Buddha truly become obscured and lost, then people will all let their beards, hair, and fingernails grow long, and the laws of the world will be forgotten and ignored. At that time, loud noises will sound in the air, and the earth will shake; everything in the world will begin to move as though it were a waterwheel. City walls will split and tumble, and all houses and dwellings will collapse. Roots, branches, leaves, petals, and fruits will lose their medicinal properties. With the exception of the heavens of purity,13 all the regions of the world of desire will become deprived of the seven flavors14 and the three kinds of vitality,15 until not a trace of them remains any more. All the good discourses that lead people to emancipation will at this time disappear. The flowers and fruits that grow in the earth will become few and will lose their flavor and sweetness. The wells, springs, and ponds will all go dry, the land everywhere will turn brackish and will crack open and warp
into hillocks and gullies. All the mountains will be swept by fire, and the heavenly beings and dragons will no longer send down rain. The seedlings of the crops will all wither and die, all the living plants will perish, and even the weeds will cease to grow any more. Dust will rain down until all is darkness and the sun and moon no longer shed their light.

“All the four directions will be afflicted by drought, and evil omens will appear again and again. The ten evil acts will increase greatly, particularly greed, anger, and foolishness, and people will think no more of their fathers and mothers than does the roe deer.16 Living beings will decline in numbers, in longevity, physical strength, dignity, and enjoyment. They will become estranged from the delights of the human and heavenly realms, and all will fall into the paths of evil. The wicked rulers and monks who perform these ten evil acts will curse and destroy my correct teaching and make it difficult for those in the human and heavenly realms to stay there. At that time the benevolent deities and heavenly kings, who would ordinarily take pity on living beings, will abandon this impure and evil nation, and all will make their way to other regions.”

The Benevolent Kings Sutra states: “When a nation becomes disordered, it is the spirits that first show signs of rampancy. Because the spirits become rampant, all the people of the nation become disordered. Invaders come to plunder the country, and the common people face annihilation. The ruler, the high ministers, the crown prince, the other princes, and the hundred officials all quarrel with one another over right and wrong. Heaven and earth manifest prodigies and strange occurrences; the twenty-eight constellations, the stars, and the sun and moon appear at irregular times and in irregular positions; and numerous outlaws rise up.”


Major Writings
Nichiren Daishonin -
13th Century
Hokkeko