Bout Number and Ratio

[oso97]

A post in another thread in a different forum reminded me of something I've heard before, and made me think of some followup questions.

Its been said that a serious competitor should be getting in a minimum of 100 competitive bouts per season. I'll accept that as a good baseline for my students, but I'm wondering about some components of that.

What percentage of that should be pool bouts and what percentage DE bouts? What percentage should be against stronger competitors?

For my two top competitors, we're looking at about 130 bouts this season, with approximately 100 of those being pool bouts, once Nationals is over. I'd say about 40-50% of the bouts were against competitors of about the same skill level, and maybe 10-15% were against competitors of significantly higher skill level.

Thoughts?

[AaronK]

There is no real way to get a model or bell curve for your question-
As your students improve through the ranks there will be less and less opponents who are of equal or greater skill level. The proportions will not remain constant.
The nature of the opponents will also very greatly between local, national and international competition.
Also considering the random assignment of pools, not all pools are created equal.
There are tournaments where the number of DE's you fence will be greater than the number of Pool bouts you have (if you win the tournament)- so for someone who is winning or placing in the top 8 at a large tournament (more than 65+ competitors), the # of DE will outweigh the # of pool bouts.
If someone is fencing a lot of smaller events, and only gets past 1-3 DE's then their ratio is going to a vastly different.

[brutus]

I don't see how or why you would need to partake in a set amount of bouts

[oso97]

There is no real way to get a model or bell curve for your question-
As your students improve through the ranks there will be less and less opponents who are of equal or greater skill level. The proportions will not remain constant.
The nature of the opponents will also very greatly between local, national and international competition.
Also considering the random assignment of pools, not all pools are created equal.
There are tournaments where the number of DE's you fence will be greater than the number of Pool bouts you have (if you win the tournament)- so for someone who is winning or placing in the top 8 at a large tournament (more than 65+ competitors), the # of DE will outweigh the # of pool bouts.
If someone is fencing a lot of smaller events, and only gets past 1-3 DE's then their ratio is going to a vastly different.

Yea, I thought about that afterwards. I'm now going back and tracking some results for previous seasons and will continue to do so in the future. Hopefully with the idea of getting a decent metric, or at least some sort of range of target, for different developmental stages. We'll see how it goes.

Hypothesis: Number of competitive bouts per season correlates well with advancement as measured by rating and/or NRPS standing.

[oso97]

I don't see how or why you would need to partake in a set amount of bouts

Not so much a "set" number of bouts, but perhaps have a target minimum to reach per season. The theory being that bouts in competition are one component of overall training (lessons, cross training, practice bouts, etc) that push one's development in different ways than the other.

[AaronK]

So basically you are looking for a volume of quality competitive bouts as part of a fencer's training; and asking what should the minimum # of bouts a competitor should have for training purposes?

I think this answer can also be a variable, depending on the athlete. I think an athlete who is more introspective in nature may tend to do better with fewer bouts, where as an athlete who doesn't spend much time in reflection will need more. Someone who is getting a larger volume of bouts may lose focus more often, where as not enough may drive an athlete to place more importance on winning than the [single] tournament merits.

The volume of competitive bouts have been used as a rubric by quite a number of fencing schools, but I can't quote any specifics off the top of my head.

[fencerbill]

I have encountered a few hypotheses since I started.

Fencing against better fencers will improve your fencing.

It is hard to MAINTAIN, much less improve, your proficiency when you are the best fencer.

The quality of the bouts is important. Just entering local tournaments may not be enough, particularly as your fencers improve.

You may have to find an alternative to local tournaments for your best fencers. It was surprising to us in the Boston area when a fencer from Rochester became a familiar sight in our local tournaments. He fenced at the Rochester Fencing Center but was told that he should participate in a serious tournament once a month. He liked our tournaments.

I don't know the density of fencing clubs in your area or how far it is to clubs who have fencers who can "stretch" your fencers. Other clubs may also have trouble getting quality bouts for their fencers. It may be worthwhile to set up joint sessions with these other clubs, perhaps on Friday nights or Saturdays. You should make arrangements for competent refereeing for these occasions. Less than competent refereeing can be confusing for the fencers or even cause their technique to deteriorate. It doesn't have to be other than the participants, but all of them who do referee should do it well. And for them to progress to refereeing well will improve their fencing as well.

Even better would be a situation where you and/or the other coaches can critique your fencers during breaks or after bouts.

Best would be for you and these other coaches to use similar coaching techniques and be compatible enough to offer advice to each other's fencers. Then not all the coaches would have to be there every time to maintain the quality of the experience..

A couple of hours of focussed training can be better than 5 or 10 times as much casual bouting with every Tom, Dick or Hairy that comes along.

[contre-Sixte]

Fencing against better fencers will improve your fencing.

Drills will improve your fencing. I've never seen anyone get better from only doing open bouting in the salle. I like to learn an action in a lesson. Then I practice it over and over against the wall or on a fencing dummy. Then I practice it on a weak fencer ( kind of like a moving dummy). Finally, I incorporate it into my actions against a quality opponent.

The quality of the bouts is important. Just entering local tournaments may not be enough, particularly as your fencers improve.

So True.

A couple of hours of focused training can be better than 5 or 10 times as much casual bouting with every Tom, Dick or Hairy that comes along.

I agree with the part about focused training. However, bouting with lots of different people (of varying levels of competence) is precisely the way to get the best results at a tournament. Open events always have lots of wild fencers. It always amazes me to see strong fencers giving up valuable points in the pool because they are unprepared to deal with the fleching, arm-waving menace.

Sorry for the slight thread drift. Anyhow, to the original question: I don't think how many times you compete in a year (or how many bouts you log) is as relevant as your preparation prior to competing. Just take a look at any NAC result at any level (DIVI or DIVIII). You can always find competitors who do well that compete every week of the year. You can also find Top-16 finalists who have rarely been seen on the regional or national scene.

[Allen Evans]

A good source for this sort of information is Planning to Win by Aldar Kogler.

Dr. Kogler makes a distinction between competitive bouts, bouts fenced to win in practice (what he calls "sharp bouts") and other training, including practice bouts and lessons. All of this works contributes to the training load for a fencer, and all should be incorporated.

The number of bouts fenced in a training cycle is highly dependent on where the fencer is in their yearly training cycle, and in their overall training plan. It would be incorrect for a coach to demand 20 sharp bouts from a beginning fencer, for instance. On the other hand, for a fencer preparing for a major tournament, such as a NAC, 15-20 sharp bouts may be appropriate.

I would suggest buying the book (I believe it's still available) and looking into the suggestions from Dr. Kogler.

AE